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A contentious issue for you...

If you perform an effective trick without the use of sleights but perform a diabolical effect "such as brainwave" then does it really matter ? Why bother learning complicated sleights if the "punter" doesn't know either way, he/she simply sees a magic effect.

Flourishes are cool and therefore show off your skills but whether you're clever with your hands or whether your trick is good, the only thing that a punter appreciates is the effect, surely ?

(I'm not seeking criticism here. I simply want to start a lively debate and reflect on the camp of "sleightmeisters" and the other camp of "instanttricksters". I will be fascinated to hear from anyone about this..)

You can only do certain tricks using sleights. If you never use sleights, you can only do about 1/4 of the magic tricks in the world.

monker59 wrote:You can only do certain tricks using sleights. If you never use sleights, you can only do about 1/4 of the magic tricks in the world.

I disagree with this. You can only perform certain ROUTINES that use specific sleights - but you can duplicate the EFFECT without the use of sleight of hand. I have a hard time thinking of a sleight of hand routine that can't be duplicated without having to use sleights.

The decision to learn sleight of hand is purely a personal one. You can (and some have) make an entire living in magic without ever using a single bit of sleight of hand.

I prefer a little mixture of both. From personal experience, when I perform card magic, there are, for the most part, two general ideas spectators have about the method.

1 - Sleight of hand
2 - Trick cards

Throwing in a mixture of both kinds of effects further throws them off the trail. It keeps them guessing. I agree that the effect on your audience means more than anything - and as such, I will use whatever I can (sleights, gimmicks, stacks, mathematical principles, etc.) to get that strong reaction.

Demitri,

That is an excellent posting. I couldn't have put it better myself.

I use sleights when "I" think it will be more effective.

Thanks !

Shane

I agree with Demitri too.

The magic is in the eye of the spectator and how it's achieved by the magician is something totally different. Sleights and misdirection are purely a means to an end and the choice of the magician in that he/she learns what he/she chooses to learn.

monker59 wrote:You can only do certain tricks using sleights.

Sorry, no. That's not true. There's always another way to get to an effect. That's what's so fascinating.

I think what it comes down to is the matter of routining and flexibility. In my experience most effects that require little or no sleights are pretty much one offs.
For example you use a prepared deck for an effect that in its prepared state will create a magical moment but in order to perform another you need to set up another deck or swap decks etc then you are pretty much stuck up a certain creek without a paddle if you have no experience with sleight of hand.
Give any magician who has practiced in his relative field or fields a pack of cards, coins, rope, rubber bands etc. and they should be able to do one or two things to entertain.
I think with a bit of thought you could easily come up with a good routine of self working effects but you would be severly limiting yourself. Anyone who has performed for people knows the feeling of just risking something new in the moment too and going with it and I'm sure this rubs off on the spectator which is something impossible in a gimmicked self working world.
At the end of the day too (as stated above) it is the effect on the audience that truley matters and if you are able to thoroughly entertain and astounish with self working effects then good for you but I really think you will be missing out on much of the grace, skill and sheer inventiveness that the magic community offers to its students.
Finally there is no better feeling in the world than performing something that looks completely impossible to then hand over the item for inspection as in any ungimmicked effect.

Perfectly well said, greedoniz.

It is all about the effect - no truer word was said. And sometimes a magician, for one reason or another, chooses to use a difficult series of sleights rather than a simple gaff or gimmick... "it's personal!"

But...! There are a great many instances where half of the latent power of an effect lies in the audience believing no "special apparatus" was used. And that involves examination.

Most of us will have used an ID. It's a miracle maker. But good luck to the person who "sees no need for sleights" when asked to perform a similarly baffling effect with a borrowed deck!

It comes down to being a magician versus buying something clever. With a french drop you could entertain on a desert island... if all your tricks come in packets with a secret trap door, you couldn't, simple as that.

I think of it in the realms of cooking... you could impress guest after guest by heating up 5 star meals and successfully passing them off as your own, but bung two people in a kitchen with some raw ingredients and you'll soon find out who is the real chef!
Likewise, if you claim to be a magician you are saying something about yourself, not just your ability to buy and use "tricks", and you should be prepared in some way to demonstrate that "truth" in almost all circumstances. What would you think if someone collapsed, the shout went up for a doctor and the reply was "yes, but without an MRI scanner I'm totally useless!"

Sleight of hand, to me, is almost essential. At school, I get asked to do tricks by people I've never met before. Word of mouth (though redundant) is very powerful indeed... But I digress.
I almost always use borrowed decks for sleight of hand. As long as it isn's a frozen block of card board, I can usually use it. Without sleight of hand, I'd be stuck every time people wanted to see tricks. I don't carry my cards with me everywhere. But outside of cards, sleight of hand is useful. The ability to do impromptu miracles with borrowed objects is one that magicians strive for.

As far as your separation of "sleightmeisters" and instatricksters (I like my wording better, hence no quotes ), you definitely need a middle ground. Effects that require almost no sleights may, in fact, be more difficult than the most knuckle busting moves (simple switch, top shot, 2be gone) simply because they require verbal manipulation and confidence (Jermay stuff).

*That's just bad routineing, isn't it...

Some really great post here and in my opinion, this is one of the best threads that I've read in a while.

I think that you've all hit the nail on the head in terms of what makes things magical to our audience and yet, at the same time have given an insight into what your own preferences are.

I also believe that some magic is stronger in the mind of the spectator when you can borrow an object to perform with - even if you perform a switch before and then again afterwards. A cigarette through coin routine is a good example of this as you've planted the impression in the mind of the spectator that you have used their coin when in fact you used a gimmick. The skill is in the sleight of the switch but also in the presentation of the routine after the most difficult part has been done.

Although you use a gimmicked coin, the version where you change between borrowed and gimmicked coins, and then back again is a much stronger routine in the mind of the spec than just pulling a gimmicked coin from your pocket, performing and then putting it back afterwards.

So sleight of hand skills can enhance a self working effect even more and this is perhaps where the middle ground is.

With sleight of hand skills, you can peform any time, anywhere which is what people expect of a magician.
I think sleights that are useful and make the conclusion the effect smoother are useful, but effects that describe lots of fancy, over complex sleights when they are unnecessary are just trying to say "Look! Isn't this hard!".
I only put the time and effort into learning something like that if the end result is a real stunner. There are some great effects like 3 Card Across which can be peformed by other means than sleights, but the version which requires p***ing is the most effective, in my experience.

Demitri wrote:You can only perform certain ROUTINES that use specific sleights - but you can duplicate the EFFECT without the use of sleight of hand. I have a hard time thinking of a sleight of hand routine that can't be duplicated without having to use sleights.

Agreed, but I peronally think it's much more satisfying to use the sleight, not necesarily because it's harder or takes more skill but because you feel like you've got more control over what's happening.
Whenever I've performed tricks for my friends, I find that I enjoy seeing their amazement more when I'm using sleights than when I'm not. A self working trick is just that, now that doesn't mean to say that they aren't good, or that I wouldn't use them (some of my favourite tricks are in fact some of the simplest I know), but I find that I am happier when I have done something that requires a sleight or two than when I've done something that doesn't and in my (limited) experience the happier I am at the end of a trick the more the audience enjoys the next one.

Yes, for some the use of sleight of hand is more satisfying. You've gotten away with something, done it right under their noses and none were the wiser. That's one of the underlying draws of sleight of hand - the fact that you're getting over on someone.

But the fact remains - it's still personal choice. Neither one is the right choice for all, just the right choice for you. You enjoy the added thrill that sleight of hand gives you, and that's perfectly fine.

Lord Freddie - I fail to see how one is unable to perform anytime, anywhere UNLESS sleight of hand is involved.

I do, wholeheartedly agree with you about the use of sleights for the sake of showing off.

You misunderstand me. Yes, sleight of hand is always involved but I am referring to the overly complex sleights that some books/DVD's describe which give you the same end result as a well executed pass or d/l.
Most of the basic sleights, such as the things in RRTCM are basically what's needed to peform 'miracles'.
It's the knuckle-busting "I'm faster than you" crowd who are outdoing each other and forget entertaining people are the ones I object to.

Actually, I didn't really type it clearly.

You said that with sleight of hand skills you can perform anytime, anywhere. I was wondering if that meant that someone who doesn't use sleight of hand cannot do the same.

As for the sleights issue - I agreed with you. I too prefer a less is more approach. One of my favorite lines on the matter is from Hugard's Encyclopedia of Card Tricks.

To paraphrase - Any road that leads to the desired result, that of deceiving your audience, is as good as any other, and where simplicity is achieved, it may be much better....complication for the sake of being complicated is a fool's trick and is not the same thing as being clever. In ordinary life, this is called self conceit.