talkmagic.co.uk

Now before I start I do realise this could become a contentious thread but I would ask anyone who is to post any reply to either this or any other to think and argue their case in a grown up fashion.
I only say this as many threads I have come across lately have been locked or mearly descend into a argument of such pettiness that it could have become the subject of a daytime tv talk show.

Recently I have been getting into many discussions about many things that for me lay in the realm of belief.
For example this morning I was talking to someone who swears by homeopathy and after many minutes of discussion in which I questioned the effectiveness of it and presnted evidence of many independant trials in which this alternative therapy was shown to be ineffective. Not only that but the way the system works itself (eg. a sleep remedy would be extremely diluted caffeine).
The reply to the presentation of both the empirical data and the questioning of its methods was mearly of the reply of ' Well it's what I believe and it worked for me'.
Personally I find that an unacceptable answer in any adult discussion as it ignores the argument altogether. An argument or discussion is built on a proposition by one party which is then taken accepted, rejected or altered by the other. The uttering of any phrase such as 'I believe, so there' or 'It just is so there' is no longer presenting anything further to forwarding that argument.

Anyway I digress... my opening ended question I suppose is this. When a person has a belief (be it alternative medicine, paranormal, religion) and rational evidence which is well versed and as conclusive as any empirical data can be, how can any person with a jot of rationality in their head ignore such things?

Now as I said above please feel free to attack this argument or indeed agree with it but lets keep it pleasant. I uphold anyoones right to believe what they wish but at the same time uphold my right to question it.

I'm immediately scared to post anything in this thread (I've seen waaay too many like this go bad, very quickly), so I'll be the guy selling popcorn just outside the door

As stated above my intention is not to start such things but to mearly to openly discuss how certain people are able to discount evidence in favour of superstition or emotive feelings.
It seems to me to be a rejection of our rational mind which I think is the basis of most human endevour.

If anyone does bring this thread down with aggressive or personal arguments then they will have surely shown themselves unable to engage in a serious discussion as an adult

An interesting question...

Going back to alternative medicine, many people swear by things that have very little or no reliable evidence to back them up. But then again, in truth we know very little about how the body works and all it's funtions.

If someone believes that something works for them, who can say that it doesn't for certain. I'll give an example, a few years ago I torn my knee when running. I went to the doctors and had all sorts of medicines, these would often work for a month or two before the injury reoccured.

I was speaking to a friend of mine who's very much into herbalism and alternative medicines. She went out into her garden, pulled up a few weeds and boiled them up with something horrible smelling and made me a lotion. On top of that she also told me about magnetic therapy, where magnets are stuck to the injured part of the body.

4 weeks of using these and I was back running and feeling the best I had in months. And on top of that, the injury has never come back.

Now if I get any problems I always go to her first because I know what ever she gives me does work.

Although there is evidence to support herbal therapy, there is very little evidence supporting magnetic therapy, but dispite that I still swear by it.

Perhaps it's just my belief in it that makes it work, but what ever it is and dispite the lack of solid scientific evidence, I'm going to continue using it.

Just to answer the question as you've put it:

...how can any person with a jot of rationality in their head ignore such things?

Rational people won't ignore such things, but human beings aren't innately rational. The funny thing is, even the people who reject logic, reason and scientific methods still expect their whale music CDs to work when they put them in the drawer. This is an area that interests me.

Lady of Mystery wrote:If someone believes that something works for them, who can say that it doesn't for certain.

Put simply, they can't. But if there is no good reason to associate application of magnets with your recovery from injury other than 'they happened at the same time' , then it's a pretty shakey foundation to use to recommend it as a treatment.

I was constipated last week, and then on Friday I put on my PK ring for the first time in weeks. Problems over. I'm not convinced the two are connected though. (Only joking, but...)

I cannot poo poo (no pun on previous post) your experience with herbal remedies as most medical science and cures are based on existing herbal remedies.
Aspirin for example was originally a herbal remedy (tree bark if I remember right). However what science is able to to do is isolate the effective chemical / chemicals and purify it and administer an exact dose.
I do find it strange when people use herbal remedies thinking they are better as they are natural when most of the most powerful toxins known to man are natural too.
Herbal remdies themselves therefore are a system in which some of the cures has a rational basis. There are other more 'esoteric' medicines (e.g applied kinesiology, homeopathy, crystal therapy) that when scientfic method is applied would fall apart.

i think everyone is guilty of it, its like footie-players having good luck routines too...they know its rubbish, but they cant help themselves..and you wont change their minds either...

ever do this? have a bit of rubbish in your hand, and you say to yourself "if i get this in the bin from here...so-and-so will work out alright..."

you throw it, miss...then you say to yourself "well, ok, out of 5 then..."

i think its just part of being human..quite nice in lots of ways, if its just some kind of quirk or "thing"...but when you judge all else against that, thats when its troublesome...

and at the same time, i try not to be so logical about things...i do enjoy a little sense of mystery and wonder about somethings in life...

here's one for you...

if our brain waves and thoughts, are kind powered by some kind of internal battery and electrical current...would it be possible that some people can tune into those wavelengths? is that why you can instantly get on with people? dunno....but i like thinking about it..

I'm sure i'll be corrected too - but thats not really the point as far as im concerned...

and its probably why i am drawn occasionally to zen buddhism, no god as such, just a series of internalised questions and ponderings...

ah off topic...brilliant...

ah just remembered...

cancer patients during chemo that remained more positive and as relaxed as possible during it got better quicker and didnt suffer as much as those that didnt...

power of the mind - i wonder how far it can go...very interesting though..

and touching on lomsters knee injury, there was a programme about knee injuries and the placebo effect - 12 people with the same injury, all were told and taken through the motions of surgery, but only 6 actually got operated on...

all 6 who werent operated on, got "better", and it didnt occur again...yet 2 of the others had it again with 8 months or so...

wierd eh!

faith is neither logical or rational and therefore needs neither for justification.

examples:-

scientology.
cult of the chocolate teapot.
roman catholics.
mormons.

the brain exsibits electrical waves which we can record and use to control electrical devices, ergo the brain and central nervouse system is a transmiter of said signals.
we know that microwaves can effect the brain as well as elmw (elephants use this to comunicate), ergo if a brain and central nervouse system can produce said recordable waves, it is feesable that the body can be affected by thease impulses.
therefore our bodies are electromagnetic transievers, a skill that we may have lost over time as are reliance on tools increased.

As I understand it, homoeopathy works by adding a known amount of a substance to water then diluting it to such a weakness that only the "vibration" of the substance (and a few atoms) remain.

Unless you're going to actually make completely pure water from oxygen and hydrogen, then keep, transport and use it in a completely inert environment, the impurities in your supply (including from the container) are always going to far outweigh the amount of substance left, and overwhelm its "vibrations" (as if there were any in the first place).

Homoeopathy is nonsense. Belief in this and a whole range of other nonsense is just a bill of goods for a better future eagerly taken on trust because it means not having to actually do anything to achieve that future. The trouble is, we live in a world where people believe that a mere £1 gives them a realistic chance of winning £14,000,000. Of course they'll believe it! They're (in the nicest possible sense) idiots!

Edit: I should just point out that a lot of people take alternative remedies for conditions that are inherently self-limiting anyway i.e. they were always going to get better on their own.

The placebo effect is a powerful and very real effect. So much so that any medical trial has a statistical bias placed in into its finding to account for it.

So belief in a therapy can yield poisitve result. that itself is not in contention but the human capacity to discount overwhelming evidence in favour for a feeling or a hunch that it's real.
I find this rejection of the rational so befuddling that I truley do not understand it and I can only rationalise it to myself by putting it down to denial or self delusion.

personally...if it works for you and gets you through something...well...

for example, who am i to sit next to a little old lady with cancer and say to her "oy luv, don't bother praying...it wont work..."

regardless of whether praying will or wont help, it does "help" in the sense that the lady gets a bit of hope and a release...its certainly not my place to discourage her...

i know thats an extreme example, but it kinda illustrates my own opinion on this kinda thing...

atoms existed before they were scientifically discovered afterall...

just cos we cant prove something now, doesnt mean we wont in the future...

speaking as an atheist too by the way...

Well, this could all get very philosophical.

There is no particularly good reason to expect that people will think or act 'rationally'. Rationality is a concept very much like justice. It's noble and it's right, but it exists only in the minds of those who believe in it.

Also, you're opening up a bigger can of worms than you seem to realise when you bandy around words like 'real'. Reality is a subjective experience. What we know as reality comprises our perceptions of the Universe fed into our consciousnesses by our imperfect senses. Now let's try and define 'consciousness'. Oh.....let's not. There are daft people and there are sensible people. The dafties are in the majority. Just live with it.

I too would agree that both science doesn't know everything and the complete scope of scientific knowledge is a series of theories with evidence which points to a conclusion. Also many people think that scientists try to prove hypothesis but this is incorrect. They arrive at a hypothesis and using strict test try to disprove it and if it stands up to this rigerous testing it is published and those tests are repeated by different people and then if it stands then it becomes accepted.
Now personally I think this is a pretty good system and beats the 'it worked on me therefore its real mentality'

I suppose the world I wish to live in is filled with the pursuit of truth and not all people wish to know this but rather live in a world full of magic and mystism. As I've said before anyone who wishes to believe in anything has the right to but that same right applies to those who wish to question both the systems claims and the motives of the people who make money from it and here is where I truley have a problem.
If someone is dying and beleives that if they go to a psychic surgeon they will be cured and spend their savings doing so, surely the exploitation here needs to be addressed!