talkmagic.co.uk

SO… If you watched a performance or was told of a routine which in turn you tipped the method would you then purchase the effect, not even read through the effect you purchased, so to feel ethically allowed to use it ?

Well, knowadays, people in the demos are trying to edit and block out images just to contain the secret, but in many cases that just doesn't work. Still, I think that even if you discover the secret upon viewing the demo, you should still support the creator and buy the DVD or effect or whatever else. Think of it as a congratulations for creating a good effect.

Michael Kras

If you can see how it is done in the demo and the demo is performed by the person selling the effect, then it is that persons fault and I think you do not need to buy it. For example, Paperclipped by Jay Sankey is obvious for me, and I saw it through watching the demo performed by Sankey. I do not perform Paperclipped, and even if I did I would not be buying it as a little congratualtions.

If however, you found the method through a badly performed video on YouTube, then it is 100% wrong perform this effect. It would be alright to perform it for a small group of friends, but CERTAINLY not to make money from performing it. I can't understand how people could do that and keep a clear conscience.

That's just the way I see it

FRK wrote:SO… If you watched a performance or was told of a routine which in turn you tipped the method would you then purchase the effect, not even read through the effect you purchased, so to feel ethically allowed to use it ?

If I wanted to perform that effect or routine then yes, I would... and I would read through it too, why wouldn't I?

I think I understand what you're trying to say: if it was a novel routine then yes, I would buy it to give the creator his dues for the idea - and I would probably read through it too to see the benefits of his over mine.

If it was something more generic, and I wanted to perform it that way, then yes, I would still buy it, and yes, I would read through it.

If anyone can present a proper argument defending intellectual property theft in this context then I would be interested in hearing it, but I don't think anyone can because I don't think it is defensible on any rational level.

Unfortunately, this is a circular argument.

And frankly, it really sorts out the magically minded 'men' from the 'boys'.

Learning, performing, and benefitting from effects which you don't own, or have paid the AUTHOR to learn, are nothing short of plagarism.

This, ladies and gentlemen, is the sad state of magic today. 10 years ago, this discussion would have been very different. Every man and his dog now feels that they are owed the right to knowledge, and it's just wrong.

I am just glad that there are still some people around who have enough respect and morals to follow the right path.

Again, this morning, I was offered links to filesharing forums by an idiot on MSN... 'tell me how to do Interlace and I can give you membership to a massive collection of magic'.

Sometimes, I hate the internet.

Is there a balance between working out a method, which often is the fun part, and using the accumulative knowledge to better under stand magic and giving you the ability to try and create your own.

If I purchased every effect I had worked out the method of I would be bankrupt!

After reading 13 steps my life would have been a round of purchasing effects I had just read about.

At what point does plagiarism kick in?

Plagarism is the amount of people working things out from places such as YouNoob and stealing and using the stuff for their own commercial gain.

There are even pirated effects on eBay.

I've no problem with people using what they've gleaned for their own creative process, but I do have a problem with people using stuff verbatim, and worse, I have problems with people sharing knowledge which isn't theirs to share.

Barely an effect passes me by these days which I don't know the workings or method to, because I've studied and learned the building blocks just like the creators of such effects.

But I find it unfair that people feel they have a right to claim knowledge for free without though nor respect for the originator.

Im eally not sure where I stand on this idea...I figured out a magic trick after someone sent me ademo site, its called 'shirt happens', cant remember who it was by. Irecorded myself doing a the trick, how Iwould have done it and put it on my phone. Mymates loved it, but out of principle I would never perform it for moneyin shows etc, or ever claim it as my own.

Needless to say, based on the reaction to the video from my mates I went back to the site and looked at what else you would get if you purchased the trick - it was the ideas on how to expand / modify the trick in ways I couldnt even begin to work out.

I actually purchased the trick and then felt it alright to film me doing versions of the tricks on my phone / performing it to mates etc.

On the DVD idea, I am about to buy RRTCM DVD and am really looking forward to it, even if it explains ideas I already know - sleights, p*****g etc the experience and the full package of routine, patter, angle expenation etc is what I am looking forward too and in my oppinion what you should use before you can claim that you can do the trick

I watched a demo video for Entourage recently and figured it out almost immediately. However, I still think it's a great trick and I intend on purchasing it. I think we should support our craft by supporting those of us creative enough to develop an effect and put it on the market. That's just my opinion.

If a music artist has radio play or music broadcast within a PEL licensed environment then the artist gets paid for it.
The BIG difference between music and magic:

- No one enforces magic or magic performance!!

A local government will spend time and money ensuring that a venue which plays music is paying the correct subscription for their individual license whereas magic has no such organisation.

If you are caught downloading files from the internet or making copies of DVDs not only are you ripping off the creator you are breaking the law!!

By working out a version of a trick (which may or may not be the same method) you have obviously spent time considering the effect and working through it - you should still purchase the effect to give you the right to perform it. Saying that - if you were to look at alot of dvds that are out there how many times do you see the same moves being performed and then taught - who owns the rights to those?
The 'grey' area is also - what if you create a brilliant trick/effect and then see something very similar being marketed - did you create it first?? Where do you stand legally on this - can you perform your version??

Sorry if this seems like a ramble (which it is!!) but I have had this argument myself with someone else at the local magic circle and we agreed to disagree and never raise the subject EVER again!!

I do have to admit to occaisionally looking at a performance and trying to break it down into its components to workl out what was happening - its almost like a switch off from work for me!! That doesn't mean that I then go and use these tricks on the general public - I may use ideas that I have gleaned from them on my own performances. Does that make me a 'thief?'

AAAAAARGHHH!

Andyb wrote:I do have to admit to occaisionally looking at a performance and trying to break it down into its components to workl out what was happening - its almost like a switch off from work for me!! That doesn't mean that I then go and use these tricks on the general public - I may use ideas that I have gleaned from them on my own performances. Does that make me a 'thief?'

AAAAAARGHHH!

Actually: this reminds me of a recent reference to 'pubtricks,com'...

Most of the stuff on that site falls into this bracket, and yet they are blatantly making money from it.

I think it boils down to the fact that although we KNOW how something is done, it doesn't mean we can use it.

Similar to the recent YouLube discussions—'is exposure on YouPoo harming magic?'.

The simple answer is No. Because the pimpled pre-pubescant users and posters there aren't actually going to make a living... it's a novelty to them.

What IS harming the magic community is sites who are making money from, and encouraging 'one hit wonder' and 'one trick pony' effects for a heck of a lot more cost than a DECENT good book on magic.

It's become a capitalist market, with every Tom, Dick and college-grad Harry getting a PayPal account and website setup and flogging their 'own' material.

That's where the real harm is—capitalism.

To be honest.. theres not that much that I have figured out from a demo.. mainly because when I watch magic I go into 'laymen' mode and am just fascinated by what I see. I block all 'magi' influences and never try to reverse engineer.

The only things I have ever worked out have been Stigmata, Warning, and Kaos.. all ellusionist hyped products..

For Stigmata.. I bought Banacheks PSI series so that I would have a lot more material for my money. Warning was given away in Daniels Lecure notes, so I felt ok performing it, till i realised it was probably killing me ( literally ) doing so. And Kaos... I have no interest in performing anyway..

AND STILL I ended up buying all 3!!

I think if I work out an effect by coincidence or through natural experience. I would feel ok peforming the effect.. but the likelyhood is that it just wouldnt work its way into my arsenal, just through not putting the time and effort into perfecting the effect the way you would with something you have bought!!

So eventually I would buy it.. if I felt it could be of use to me, because the tips and suggestions often give a slant on the effect you may not have thought of..

Im not young.. not old.. I dont have the 'ethics and morals' as a lot of the older generation.. I grew up downloading music and movies..

HOWEVER.. as was always the case... I always ended up buying the CD's and DVD's of the stuff I actually bothered to listen to because I had a thing about wanting the packaging!!

So through some weird insistence of having original packaging, my morals tend to fall into the right place.. which works out well for me..

I.D wrote:HOWEVER.. as was always the case... I always ended up buying the CD's and DVD's of the stuff I actually bothered to listen to because I had a thing about wanting the packaging!!

So through some weird insistence of having original packaging, my morals tend to fall into the right place.. which works out well for me..

Good point! It's important for me too..... something about looking at my CD and DVD rack and seeing all those pretty boxes and cases makes me happy! If I would look and see all kinds of photocopied paper and clear cases with sharpie scribbles on the disc it would bother me considerably.

I can see that this is a very intense argument, and so I will try to be as diplomatic as I can.

In my opinion, it is completely WRONG to perform an effect for monetary gain if you learnt/dicovered it via a demo video or exposure video on youtube. It should be a matter of principle to all magicians to help protect magic that they don't "pirate" effects WITHOUT buying them.

However, If you create an effect of your own design, then discover that it is already marketed, I would be more inclined to use it without buying the marketed effect. However, again as a matter of principle, I would probably buy the effect, as I would probably get tips for performance, patter etc, but also because I do not want to "pirate" an effect that has been created by someone else. Yes, I may have created the effect, but this person has gone to the trouble and cost of marketing it to the public as well as creating it! you see my point?

Many magicians or laypeople believe that they have the "right" to use an effect simply because they practice magic, or in the case of the layperson, they know a trick or two. In my opinion this is WRONG. No one has the "right" to effects without paying for them first. Be that in books, DVDs, videos, pamphlets etc. If you created the effect however, you have full rights to perform it as YOU are the creator. The shoe is now on the other foot.

(In terms of music, just because Madonna is a singer, doesn't mean that she has the right to sing westlife songs live on stage. She could sing them to herslf at home perhaps, but not for audiences-they are not her songs to sing even though she is a singer! If you write a song, then find that it is marketed, it is tough luck and you should have marketed it quicker)

This "right" that people believe that they have to free magic, combined with the growing number of exposure videos on Youtube could be damaging in the long run. The least that dedicated magicians can do is try to preserve these effcts, and not join in the pirating of magic itself. That would be shooting ourselves in the foot.

If all magicians pirated effects, all talkmagic members might as well take every single trick they know, film an exposure video and put it on youtube. Now every Tom Dick and Harry can do it. Are we all happy now? No. Because now, every trick is known to everyone and magic becomes pointless because every time you perform an effect, every person you perform to will hwve seen it and will know how it is done. There will be no demand for magic, magicians will be out of jobs, and one of the best pastimes/professions/fields of entertainement will become null and void as there will be no appeal for magic any more...

This is extreme I know, but I'm sure you get what I mean...

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I work in TV and Film, so copyright theft is somthing that P*&%es me off no end, and causes arguments around the family dinner table.

But perhaps someone can suggest a solution to me here;

There is a certain prop that I have seen in shops, shows and catalogues. It is a lovely prop. It has a great effect, but is really very simple. I believe I know how it works. I believe I could make it myslef (or with a little help) and yes I could adapt it so that it is far removed from the item I originally saw. Infact I could almost market it as it is so different... what to do.
I will obviously buy this effect, but only 'cos I'm slightly lazy, and am sure that the product would be better than what I can biuld at the moment.

Also

I saw a demo for a Pizza version of a Dice Box. Surely, by some of your standards, that should be banned - or at least frowned upon? As it is a complete copy of another trick, just done slightly differently.

I really don't want to make any enemies in this thread, as I have such a great love for magic, and a great number of questions I need to ask soooooo many people, but sadly, as my wife would tell you, there is a logical side of me that cannot be escaped.

Please forgive me, if for nothing else, than for my honesty.