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the cover up may npt have been premeditated, then again it may have been, then it would be murder.

if the death was not premeditated, then it would class as manslaughter

either way, it does not change the fact that he was killed.

One thing none of us has mentioned though, is Paul Britton.

Now that is a guy we should be thankful for...he is actually my idol. He has his ideas about what happened as well, as we all do - but he certainly made a difference with all of this.

Great guy!

This has started a knowledge filled and opinionated thread. It was not long after I posted the email to my contacts that I realised that it will trail off and probably wont work

I think the law and order system in this country is terrible. A lot of things in this country (England) are terrible, but I wont go in to detail at the moment.

If I recall they were sentenced to life? 40 years is "life" to our system, if I am corrrect. But 40 years is far from life. It pains me to see people who have commited bank fraud (which is indeed a terrible crime) serving a longer sentence then a murderer (which is clearly worse) (sp?) Has our country gone mad? It annoys me that police are going around breaking up groups of youths hanging around at the local park, saying we are all causing trouble (many GANGS do cause a lot of trouble, but not every group of youths should be targeted because of it) rather then going out and preventing rapes, muggings etc.

I feel that the press do hype murders etc. But for some reason I do not feel this murder has been hyped. No parent here can say they keep an eye on their children 24/7. You obviously don't. It is very impossible. So, the blame on the mother is out of the question really. This is premeditated murder. Children are not as silly or immature as this goverment thinks. Really, people have know idea how smart the youth of England and Britain in general are.

These boys are very sick. They should not be moved to Australia to live out a happy ever after. They should not be let loose on the public at all. They should die a slow and painful death in my opinion. But of course, that is morally wrong now days I know, lets rehabilitate them. They seem fit and healthy, lets release them. Are they "normal"? Are they? We don't know for certain. They could just be playing along. They are smart b******s!

This is a mind boggling thing to discuss. I'll finsish by saying that I feel that our country is f****d up beyond belief that there is no going back.

Covering it up doesn't make it premeditated if it wasn't before it happened.

Yes, this is absolutely mind boggling.

Tell you what, though...If that was my kid that got tortured and killed, those two little sick animals never would have made it to trial.

Mike.

Michael Jay wrote:Yes, this is absolutely mind boggling.

Tell you what, though...If that was my kid that got tortured and killed, those two little sick animals never would have made it to trial.

Mike.

Amen!

עין תחת עין

It's a bit different than an eye for an eye, FRK. At this point, I would call it justice.

An eye for an eye would be if someone killed my kid, so I killed one of theirs. Putting two sick animals out of their misery and ensuring that no other parent will ever go through the same thing at the hands of these two particular animals is justice.

Honestly, though, if my kid was killed in such a manner, I would be going to jail. I simply could not deal with the emotional destruction behind knowing that the monster that tortured and killed my kid was allowed to live.

Mike.

If anyone touched my kids then my immediate reaction would be to respond and using the efae I could use this as a reason, but lowering yourself to there level is not right.
They kill your child you kill them makes you no better than them. Revenge has to be that, a slow, nasty, evil pain which will stay with them for ever. It is said they already have this with the guilt but I wonder…..

It's a bit different than an eye for an eye, FRK. At this point, I would call it justice.

An eye for an eye would be if someone killed my kid, so I killed one of theirs. Putting two sick animals out of their misery and ensuring that no other parent will ever go through the same thing at the hands of these two particular animals is justice.

Honestly, though, if my kid was killed in such a manner, I would be going to jail. I simply could not deal with the emotional destruction behind knowing that the monster that tortured and killed my kid was allowed to live.

Mike.

damm.. the Stella has made me see double

Andy, I do believe you're overlooking the most crucial part of your comment.

TAKE AWAY THE INFLUENCE OF A PARENT

THat was my point. A child will learn its morals from what it sees and experiences. Whether it be parents, friends or media. If you are brought up by dogs you will learn to bark (literally). THere is another study (though I cant recall the name just now) which shows the opposite. Where children are shown programs which show good behaviour. The results (though there may be a counter claim, its not a study I've looked deeply into) seem to show that they were more aware of what good behaviour was.

If I recall they were sentenced to life?

They weren't.

I know, lets rehabilitate them. They seem fit and healthy, lets release them. Are they "normal"? Are they? We don't know for certain. They could just be playing along. They are smart b******s!

Surely the trained psychologists are in a better position to test this hypothesis. You may not like their conclusion, but they are in a better informed position than us to make that decision, and is it not possible for a ten year old to change? Are you the same person as you were when you were ten? I'm not saying that I think their crimes were anything less than horrific, but I do think we need to move away from the inevitable rupert murdoch led public outrage.

Tell you what, though...If that was my kid that got tortured and killed, those two little sick animals never would have made it to trial.

That is a completely understandable reaction from a father. Though it is for this same reason that justice is not handed out by the victim. As much as the current system has its flaws, that would lead us to a much darker and unpleasant place.

Putting two sick animals out of their misery and ensuring that no other parent will ever go through the same thing at the hands of these two particular animals is justice

Would you seriously kill two ten year olds? I understand your protective instinct as a parent, but would this not make you just as bad as them? And would it really make you feel any better?

If a dog ripped my child apart, I would kill the dog. Regardless of what vicious animal did the killing, I would kill the vicious animal. Dog, kid, whatever.

This is under the circumstances that we are discussing, of course. If my kid was playing with another kid and that kid pushed him and by some freak happenstance my kid busted his head open on a rock, then this is an altogether different thing.

What was done to that child was the work of sick, vicious animals. Again, when I was 10, such an idea would never have crossed my mind and in fact didn't ever cross my mind. I never even had a desire to go to a mall and kidnap a 2 year old, much less torture and kill the child.

And, you can say that these were only 10 year olds and that maybe, just maybe, they can have some kind of normal adulthood. Personally, though, I care little for what the psychologists have to say. Any human being capable of doing what those two, little, sick animals did will never be any good for society or for themselves. Such a basic lack of humanity at 10 is going to be forever.

Would, as the father of that child, killing those sick, little animals make me as bad as them? Probably. As I said, I would go to jail. Would it make me feel better? Yes, it would. Knowing that two sick, little animals will never get the chance to do to someone else what they did to my kid, I would absolutely feel better. Knowing that no parent will ever go through what I would be going through at the hands of those two, sick, little animals would exonerate me, in my own mind.

And, FRK, I agree - lowering yourself to that level isn't right. That doesn't change the fact that I would put those two, little, sick animals out of their misery.

Mike.

I have to agree with Michael - and I would argue such reactions are not only those of a father or parent. I have no children (or an inclination to have any, at the moment) but I would still wish to see these two hang.

I made my points not knowing much about the story. This was the first I've heard of it. In some cases I do think redemption and rehabilitation are due to some. This is why I held back my opinion on what their sentence should be. However, upon further reading of this incident and some of the rest of it, I think the very least they should suffer is life in prison. I also have a problem with the "clean slate" concept. If they're not going to be put to death, they should live every moment of every day they live, being reminded of exactly what they've done. Erasing their history almost seems like a pardon for their crime.

Yes, it's possible for these kids to change. Yes, I'm a different person from when I was 10. However, I never had an impulse to do something like this at any age, so that's something that can't be dismissed just because one has aged. Something in their mind brought them to murder that child. They may be able to control it, they may not. Personally, I have to side with Michael again in saying that, at the very least, THOSE TWO won't do it again.

And yes, Andy, I would feel better. But I also don't think we are a kind, compassionate species. However, that's an entirely different debate.

Perhaps I'm too much of a damn hippy. I can understand a lot of what you say, and in some ways and sometimes I agree with you. But it also strikes me that they must have come from some messed up background for two ten year olds to even contemplate murder of a toddler. I'm not excusing their behaving, as their crime was sickening, but I personally couldn't kill anyone (though I haven't had a loved one murdered). Do you not think perhaps if a ten year old commits such a crime, the parents aren't in someway responsible too?
I'll finish by again saying that the whole argument comes down to what you think the criminal justuce system is for; rehabilitation, punishment, retribution...

Depending on specific situations, much of the blame can be on the parents. Whether or not such things apply to this case - I don't know. I don't have enough information about their lives to say one or the other.

There's also the grossly overlooked (spell that completely ignored) notion that the criminal justice system should be there to protect the citizenship. For me, my opinion of the system is a mixture of all four.