talkmagic.co.uk

Good topic of discussion! If you do a Google search on Magic you'll inevitably find some Christian Magic sites where they agonise for ages about being deceitful, telling lies, etc. Unfortunately, I think they go way over the top with their concern - Magic is Magic and can be used in many different ways with many different presentations. If a mentalist effect is presented as just that then it's OK. If it's presented as a true Spiritual process then that's something very different. If you take an unfair advantage for personal gain of someone who is in a susceptible state then that's mis-use of Magic and it's not on! Perhaps I should come clean in this respect, apart from having a normal job and being a Magic nutter, I'm also a Churchwarden, a Server at the Mass, and have been a Sunday School teacher at various times. Frankly guys, I don't see a clash between Magic and Christianity and I'll leave it to those of other faiths to comment from their points of view.

A lot of the Christian Magic sites will either offer suitable effects for sale or suggest how they can be made and all the ones I've seen have been versions of standard effects. A Satan card will take the place of a Joker card, a Jesus card will take the place of a King card and so on. There are effects where four cards show Jesus on the cross and, after some moves, all the crosses are empty thus illustrating the resurrection. The letters N F and W (plus !) come to mind here as it's the same routine!

Consider the trend of some years back whereby Magicians dressed as Hindus, as Egyptians, as Chinese - I'm sure someone would be able to take issue on some aspects.

So yes, I think we have to be careful about what we do to a certain extent but if we present it for what it is - sheer entertainment, bafflement, et, I think most specs will enjoy themselves and suspend belief long enough to forget that it's all trickery. And it's supposed to be FUN!!

Re the bit about Physicists becoming Monks, it's not so far from the truth! In many example where folks claiming supernatural powers have been 'tested' it was usually by Scientists who inevitably agreed that the person was supernatural as they couldn't find any trickery. A Magician could probably find the trickery in about 10 seconds because they're looking for it - the Scientists aren't. Just thought I'd add that bit for fun and I now await heaps of messages from angry Scientists who do Magic as well!

BLAINE!

Just one word... BLAINE...

Go wash your mouth out young man!!!

for a wile back in the eather of time i was part of a group that did cold reading / spirit reading.
this was certainly presented as spiritual and marketed as such.

we employed ever trick in the book to get the results and it was because it was so phoney that i left the group, this was early eighties when every one wanted to believe and every con artist in the would had gifts.

i take the view that if you have faith in something then there will always be someone to take advantage of your faith for matterial gain off the top of my head, catholics, david blain, daren brown, fourtune tellers, and funeral directers.

as for changing your belife structure you do this through most of you life ie you belive in father christmas, mary popin's etc, then you grow up and belive in the almighty doller.
i belive that we are able to percive waves eminating from the brain but as yet don't have the knowledge to interpret them, thus we get impression's you know when your friend is ringing you.
that and the psygological tricks, body language etc alows me to be a better magician.

You mean Mary Poppins isn't real? Oh heck!!

BTW: Does anyone remember the hoo hah over the so called Psychic Surgeons who removed tumors, lumps and all sorts of nasties from peoples' bodies without leaving a scar? Lotsa blood and gore but no scar! There was a Jonathon Creek episode where such a charlatan figured in the plot.

Damn, levitation isn't real? I'll have to chuck my habit and get back to physics degree then! Oh well, it was worth a try!

I have to say that some of the people I know from my course at uni are very susceptible to phsycological tricks. Being scientists they tend to be quite logical and easy to manipulate, and if I give an explaination of psychological manipulation to them they can follow how it may have worked even if they think that they shouldn't have fallen for it.

Nick

Well when I saw Blaine, after just correctly telling the girl what the name of the special person she had written on the now burned piece of paper, go on to rest his hand on her and then in a very mystical way tell the girl that he ( The special guy ) would always be there for her. I thought Blaine had stepped over the line and that it was immoral.

But I suppose It really depends whether your portraying yourself as an Entertainer/magician or some kind of medium, if the former then anyone with a brain knows you are out to trick/decieve them, if the latter then you are purporting it is real and I believe step into very dangerous territory and yes in my opinion immoral territory.

you will find many views about blaine on this site the fact that he is controversial gives us something to talk about.

i myself dont like his use of off camera fixes and steels, which make his magic on camera appear that he reads minds.

as for imoral he tapes in america the overacting capital of the world, what more is there to be said.

I'll have to chuck my habit and get back to physics degree then

Nick - I didn't realise that you were a Nun. Cool

I think you are right about who is more susceptible to phsycological tricks. I think people with a more "educational" background just need a little prompting in the "well it could have been done like that" area.

They know its not magic but they need to have a plausible explanation.

When doing "project X" recently to a table of university students they really bought the patter

"when, I earlier said 'DIG' deep, and bring it to the 'FORE' front of your mind, I was really subconciously making you think of the 4 of spades".

You can do some really neat mind reading tricks as well:
"think of your two favourite things............I'm getting Beer........ and sex!"
Works every time!

You're getting sex? No wonder your typing is shaky.

Going back to the original discussion for a sec (before we go too far down the beer and sex route).

1. Magic is pure deception and trickery - everyone knows this deep down so is not an issue morally.

However.

2. When doing magic to kids - they actually (hopefully) believe it is real magic - therefore is that moral? Personally I think anything that makes a kids childhood more magical then that can only ever be a good thing.

3. When magicians get into the realms of saying they are not magicians, but rather claiming to have psychic gifts (Mr.Gellar, you know who I mean), then I believe that morally this starts being an issue.

4. If this is true, then where do the magicians that claim to have "psychological" skills come in to this. People such as Derren Brown, who I have the utmost respect for I might add. Sure some of his work is done with psychology - but much of it isn't and is just claimed to be. Is this morally wrong? I hope not as I love using the "body Language" card myself when doing mentalist magic.

5. I think one thing most people agree on is that when claiming special skills, such as spiritualists, phsychics (healers, spoonbenders etc), mediums and even evangelical miricle workers. Then I believe you are seriously duping people - at the expense of money and/or their faith.

This catagory I think is the only real one that has moral issues.

If we deceive only to entertain with full support and agreement/collusion/co-operation of the audience then it's OK.

If we just deceive for deceit's sake then it's not OK.

Or something like that? Difficult to cover all possibilities but I guess this is where personal conscience comes in. We know right from wrong - I hope!

I think it depends on the deception, ie if you bend spoons you can

a: say it is a trick
b: Say it is the power of the mind/ Psychic ability or whatever

I see no real problem here.

However if you claim to have this psychic ability then go on to for example give any kind of advice using this so called ability, then I believe it is an immoral deception as vunerable people will give a far greater weight to psychic advice than just the regular advice with potential dire consequences.