talkmagic.co.uk

Right guys...a bit of a dilemma on my hand...

I have three loves in life...magic, psychology, and this girl I know (;))

This thread concerns only the first two though

I have always been interested in the area of psychology...not neccesarily Derrenesque magic based..but just in general.

Now...in a couple of months I have been asked to give a talk about psychology to some Lower 6th form first year A Level students. Unfortunately, many of these students drop out of the subject after the first month. Unfortunately, the stereotypical view is that when you take the subject you learn to "read people" e.t.c

Now the worst thing I find, is people dropping the subject, because they don't understand that what they learn in the A Level sylibus, *is* in fact very useful...and would help them if they decided to brodern their minds (so to speak).

So basically, in my talk with the students what my goal would be is to show them how what they learn in the lessons, with a bit of extra effort, will actually give them some very valuble life skills...if they put in the effort, don't expert it to be an easy ride, and didn't drop the bleedin subject

The idea I had was to do one of two things...or even both...but unfortunately, although psychology based in theory (and 100% possible), I could perform this psychologically with about a 60-70% success rate which, although is bleedin good at this stage, i (unlike other times when performing) couldn't afford this to be one of those times that I "miss" with my psychological analysis.

Idea number 1)

Use the effect "oddball" and present it in a psychological way, and talk about body language and lies and giveaway tells. I would want to renounce the old idea that "looking upwards means that you are lying" (because...of course...that is utter bull-tosh...) and show them how if you really work at it, you can spot the lies. Thus, I would perform oddball, and prove what I am saying. Then I would give the basic run down on how to spot such lies and give-away tells.

Now...I am able to do this to a high(ish) success rate through psychological means, but the whole of my talk if deciding to go down this route would depend on a success...and none of these psychological methods are fullproof..which, of course, I would be sure to mention to the students...so I had the idea of using oddball to be sure of my success...

Idea number 2)

Perform a variation of Mr Brown's "count things really quick" effect...though a lot simpler and easier (possibly) than he does it...though of course, I have no idea how he does it...

I would want to talk about classical conditioning...in, for example, Derren's presentation, he talks about associating pain with "counting things really really fast" - thus, classical conditioning. Now, I would obviously not use his presentation, but you see where I am going with this.

Then I could proceed to talk about conditioning in itself, and then about the possible dangers of it...including research that is undergoing on it at the present time, and possible uses of it in the future, that could, in theory, change the face of crime and punishment as we know it.

Now the above effects would really help me with my talks...but the thing is, although both above are possible without any "magical" means...I would actually need it to work and be 100% fullproof in the lecture to the students. So although I *could* perform these psychologically...and have done in the past...it isn't 100% fullproof.

Now basically, what I am saying, is do you believe that it is ethical in itself to be deliberately deceiving the students into thinking that I am achieving what they see through psychological means, even though in this case I am not?

Or because it *is* actually possible to do so, then it is fine due to the fact that the reasons for my doing so is for a good cause (so to speak) anyways?

I'm just not sure whether or not it would be considered a blatent lie due to the fact that to a group of psychology students I perform magic passing it across as psychology...though because what I shall be "performing" in the lecture is possible through psychological means, whether or not it could then be considered ethical due to the reason I would be doing it in the first place...

What are your guys' views on this issue?

I want to be able to give this talk...and I believe I have got some major issues that would be able to be addressed with the students...though ethics play a big part in psychology...and this could be considered deliberate deception...

though, once again, what I could be doing could be considered psychology in itself.

So, at the end of the day, what do you believe I should do?

Do the talk, and address the issues, though perform with magical means due to the fact that I *need* it to be 100% fullproof?

Or just scrap the whole talk entirely?

Cheers guys!

I think magic happening is psychology (in the spectator's mind). I don't see it being any different than a teacher looking up an answer to a math equation before he teaches it to make sure he's correct. I say go for it (and hide a camera in the room).

I'm slightly confused by what you're trying to achieve. You seemed to be saying that a lot of students think that you learn to read people when you study psychology, but that isn't actually what you learn.

I've a feeling this confusion stems from me, though! Is it that the things they will learn can be applied to reading people, but it isn't obvious?

My opinion is that you should take things they will actually study on the course and show how useful and interesting these things can be when applied to the real world.

If you are going to claim, or even imply, that they too will be able to do this stuff as well as you can (when using a trick), it seems a bit self-defeating to me. Surely misleading the students into taking a course that won't give them what they are expecting isn't good for them.

One of the complaints made about Derren Brown's old style of performing (when he said he didn't do magic), was that people were signing up to do psychology and speed-reading courses under false pretences.

If you are able to do the two tricks with psychology... why don't you?

Showing failure and genuinely having to read body language/count really quickly would look more impressive and more achievable than simply watching someone do a magic trick, and would also show that psychology can -- and does -- go wrong

I also agree with Part-Timer when he suggests to talk about things actually on the course. Maybe doing a practical demonstration of group psychology perhaps mixing in some "mind reading" (I think that sort of stuff is in the A-level course) would be interesting yet show true psychology?

Just my two cents, anyway...