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Hey guyz I'm quite interested if you prefer using surefire forces oder not.
Surefire forces are those type of forces which will always work
like riffle, hindu or overhand shuffle force
with the classic force for example you always have a chance that the force wont work

This is where I do my standard plug for a one-way deck, isn't it?
SUrely if the trick you're doing requires a force then you should do one you know will work, if your classic force isn't at Paul Daniels standard

yeah^^

well "it all depends on the situation" ey?
But lets think spontaneous. If somebody want you to do a magic trick and you need a force. You know you are a little "under" pressure and you just need to do a quick force.

Depends on the nature of the effect....I force many ways. If it is mid routine and I can head off in another direction if the bait isn't taken then no harm done and I can try again later in my performance.....however if it is a closing effect and has been billed as such you don't have much option if you are set and ready with an obvious sitiation....unless you have a couple of strong closing effects waiting in the wings for a missed force.

Now, I'm sure all of you would never perform a trick or a routine before it was performance-ready.

So isn't this the same when using a force? I would never use a force that I hadn't practiced until it was perfect and that was not 100% unless I had a back-up plan, which I always do when using the classic force, for example.
If I had a specific trick lined up and I couldn't deviate (moodini you know which one I'm talkng about), then I would always use a sure fire force.


So thats a 'yes' then.

Marvo Marky wrote:....... If I had a specific trick lined up and I couldn't deviate (moodini you know which one I'm talkng about), then I would always use a sure fire force....

Took me a minute to catch that one.....LOL

Pardon my ignorance, but I've never heard of a "surefire force" so I can't say one way or the other (but then, I loathe card tricks). On the other hand, the only "good" force is the one that works best for...

a) The circumstance in question
b) That's natural (logical) to said circumstance as well as the performer's ability to use it (not all performers are created equal when it comes to skill and natural ability to technique).
c) It must be a force that does not look like a force (sadly, a huge number of them do, once you pause and think about it... which is one of the reasons so many card pros pride themselves on the Classic Fan Force)

The One Way Force Deck previously mentioned is great if you are good at deck switches and not dealing with situations in which your hands are being burned... but then, the same could be said for a Svengali deck (which I have used for fooling magicians, no less). This concept brings us back to that little list above and the realities of mundane truth... what is most comfortable to you as a performers as well as the most practical and logical given your goals and the circumstances at hand. Too, is this something that you will be exploiting more than once or twice in a single setting (the more you use/depend upon a single move in a set routine, the more apt you are to get caught on it).

Just a few thoughts from an old fart who is having an insomniac moment.

A classic force is a sure fire force, if you have mastered it.

The point being, only use forces you are comfortable with. I don't use the hindu force, not because I can't, I'm adept at it, but I dont like it and it doesnt really fit in with the way I naturally handle cards.

If you can't classic force but want to give the impression of a perfectly free choice from spread cards there are a few methods I use to accomplish this.. and plenty of publications dealing with just forces.

But in short, only use sure fire forces, unless you have a few effects to fall back on in case a classic or such force doesn't work.

Unfortunatley, the one-way deck is the ONLY surefire force I can think of.

Even then, it's not 100% surefire, as there's a high risk of someone catching on.

I am assuming by the innocence of the first post in this thread, aavelyn, would suggest that you may just be starting in your magic journey, and have never performed the inevitable 'When Magic Goes Wrong' scenario!

True enough

There are times when a riffle force can go wrong, if the cards are too sticky, or you accidentally catch a second break as you do the force, in those instances, nothing is as valuable as experience, and knowing how to keep calm and continue from there. And when

aavelyn wrote:Hey guyz I'm quite interested if you prefer using surefire forces oder not.
Surefire forces are those type of forces which will always work
like riffle, hindu or overhand shuffle force
with the classic force for example you always have a chance that the force wont work

I think the best force is the one that's appropriate for that particular situation. It's basically down to giving the illusion of free choice when in fact the spectator has none. As long as the spectator can;t see the force, you're fine.

There are plenty of ways of making your forces more robust. My favourite book of card forces is Lewis Jones' "Encyclopaedia of Impromptu Card Forces". It's expensive, but it carries 500, from very robust to completely psychological. It has a LOT of background notes spread throughout that you can use to make things go your way. Another one is "Hidden Numerical Forces" by Thomas Henry. Very good stuff indeed and not a single bit of mental arithmetic in sight.

Then again, you might not need to force a card, as long as you can get at its identity after the fact with a peek. Or you might be able to re-engineer the trick so that you remove the need for a direct force. The sky's the limit.

Mine main concern with forces is to use pretty much the same technique most of the time, as if it's "standard". Using a riffle "force" to obtain a random card, then even giving the spec a chance to change (or suggesting a change if needed, i.e. if it's a signed card effect and they stop at a court card), then sets up the idea that this is perfectly natural, so when you come to force a card there are no suspicions.

What annoys me is when you see magicians obviously go to great lengths to do a funny card selection procedure involving sticking pens in, cutting then naffing around with the packets... "so this is the random card you've chosen..."... erm, possibly... and then, when it truly can be an X card, they just dribble or spread the cards. You might as well say "this time it doesn't matter which card you choose"!

Forces don't need to be difficult. The roll-over force and the force where the first card is drawn off the deck, then they are spread one at a time (can't remember the name) are both simple yet highly effective.

A final note: check out Mark Mason's "Real World Magic". On one of them (think it's the first but can't be sure), he shows his version of the classic force which he calls the "attitude force". I still don't use this regularly but if I did feel the need to start using the classic force, that's what I'd go for.

Farlsborough makes a great point about the lack of consistency in handling.

I like to use a handling of the Hofzinser Spread Cull as a force - since it looks like a free selection from a spread of cards in the hands. It also keeps things consistent if I genuinely allow a free choice of card.

I generally do surefire forces, why not? they're just as convincing.

@hade exactly what i always say^^
y using anything with potential danger if there are ones with guarantees