talkmagic.co.uk

Now, I'm not one for ranting, but why on earth is it that the magic world and his bloody dog are going all 'psychological' all of a sudden? It would appear that everybody nowadays considers that any routine can be enhanced by some sort of psychological force or out or something. Almost as if mentalism and it's Derren Brown wannabe 'Smoke' loving children is somehow 'better' than a good ol' retention vanish.

Fair enough it's a very interesting field and most mentalists begun life as traditional magicians before slowly developing an interest in the mental side of things. However, there are far more professionals who have started out in close-up and stayed there for their whole careers, in fact most do. It's a form of entertainment like any other, no one is better than the other, and to properly present mentalism is definitely a challenge beyond the average hobbyist who turns to it because they aren't getting the reactions they'd like from their ACR (which I suspect is a hefty percentage) and think that it would be easier and apparently more impressive to buy a Jermay book and mince about doing Reversed Gestalt Moment on all and sundry.

Sorry if this sounds like finger pointing, it isn't, but in the last few days I've come across a general theme on several other forums of people with very little magic time under their belt (by which I mean less than five years with next to no working experience) who have decided that they've gone as far as they can with sleight of hand and have no pinnacles left to reach so they'd better start on the 'serious' stuff. Frankly, I think it's human laziness and boredom engendered by not really ever performing material to more than your immediate family and friends, in which case mentalism won't work either. So shut up about the what the best item in the Psi Series is an go practice your spongeballs in front of a mirror.

Just my two cents cos it's late and I'm grumpy. Crucify me.

I don't go on any other magic forums myself (I spend too much time on TM already without introducing other forums into the mix), so I can't really comment. However my opinion is "horses for courses". If people are into magic as a hobby and want to move into mentalism - so what? It's their hobby.

On a professional level I haven't come across many "mental magicians" working in the same areas as me (corporate, weddings etc). Most seem to be sponge ball & rope kinda guys. There aren't many like me.

My advice - don't sweat it.

Its just a fad. In a few days it will be all rope tricks (maybe not but you never know.) Big fan of Derren Brown myself and I have very little experience in magic (less then half a year). What I do now is practice slieght of hand and read the "psychological stuff" I don't practice it but am simply interested in it. I guess I'm just riding the band wagon (thought I was being original . )

I Understand what your saying and it is a valid point. But who's to say that all budding mentalist are too lazy to learn sleight of hand?


Some people are just far more interested in this presentation that conjuring. I wasnt aware i had to be doing card magic for five years before i was allowed to do mentalism.

Im under no illusion (scuse the pun) that im even a competent magician but im having fun with my hobby.

Not too long ago 'Street Magic' was considered to be the only thing worth doing. Whatever we decide to call the minimal prop mental/psychological stuff, it's a branch of the same art with it's own specialities and followers. Give it a few months and the world (plus canine companion) will be barking up another tree .

never do anything that is at odds against who you are as a person, or the skills you are displaying...

i wouldnt dress all of what i do as psychology, and certainly never mention NLP...purely cos im not from that kind of background...

if you are - excellent, and it'll obviously work for you as it'll appear to be natural to who you are...but pardon the pun, never force it...

i have a little back story to help explain what i can do, and it suits me, cos i can talk about it honestly, despite lying my pants off in other "areas" to achieve what i wanna do...

honesty with yourself, entertaining deception for the participants..

bronz wrote:Frankly, I think it's human laziness and boredom engendered by not really ever performing material to more than your immediate family and friends, in which case mentalism won't work either. So shut up about the what the best item in the Psi Series is an go practice your spongeballs in front of a mirror.

Just my two cents cos it's late and I'm grumpy. Crucify me.

I can't find my hammer. Will agreement do? It's probably just down to a general lack of imagination. Like the others have said, they'll probably be chasing something else this time next year, lust like it was street magic last year. I even read a thread on E a while back about the best way to apply eye liner.

Funny you say that Bronz.. I have been into magic for about 18 months and recently took up mentalism 'alongside' magic as I enjoy both thoroughly.

I also very recently posted an experience I had performing Reverse Gestalt Moment..

Coincidence??

My personal opinion.. who cares? As humans with free will, we all do as we please.

If one starts off in magic and quickly realises that he has an interest in mentalism too and wishes to pursue both and mix his routines to that effect.. best of luck to him..

Just because a person starts out in magic.. does this mean that he has to spend 5-10 years of his life doing magic before expressing an interest in another area? And just because a person does some mentalism too.. why does that mean he has turned his back on magic? Thats not neccessarily the case.

I dont have the time or the energy to watch other people so closely that I notice every step they make and then worry enough to let that bug me..

Life's too short..

Magic is such a wide ranging subject that people will naturally experiment
with oher areas which interest them. To a lot of people, sponge balls and ropes have the stigma of 'children's entertainer' attached to them which
is not entirely true.
I tihnk the attraction to many people of mentalism is that the spec feels (if performed well) that it's not "trickery" but the real thing and the response tends to be worth the effort.

It does seem that many people want to get into it with the advent of Brown (the same way there were loads of third rate grunge bands appearing when Nirvana were about) and people will imitate something popular either because seeing it captures their imagination or they want to be seen to be 'cutting edge'.

The worst kind of mentalism is that which is performed badly. When you see these awful videos on youtube with some inarticulate chav performing a dull ACR, then they say they're studying mentalism next you just despair.
This sort of performance doesn't suit everybody as it's down to your personality and how much of a wordsmith you are. The good thing is that
to do it well is quite difficult and the curiosity seekers will be put-off by the fact that they don't get the reponses they want and they haven't become Derren overnight.

I'm not sure Bronz was targeting you I.D as I also feelthere is currently a big shift in the amount of people taking up mentalism and I think this is mainly down to Derren Brown as others have said.

There is part of me that shudders at the prospect of established mentalists having the ellusionist crowd descending on their much beloved mentalism and ruining it by learning a billet switch and going out that afternoon to wow some poor unsuspecting pedestrian on their way home from work.

I know he wasnt mate.. I just laughed as I read it as it just mirrored my recent comments very closely

I do agree with some of the comments in that uderpracticed, glory hunting wannabees are making bold claims and moving from area to area with no thought of what they are doing.

There does seem to be a distinct lack of the required effort to attain good performance levels. And it lies mainly with the CHAV culture I feel.

For those people who express genuine interests in other areas due to curiosity or a a genuine interest in the pyschological aspects of mentalism or whatever else that pulls them to it, fair enough. Its their hobby as has been said. And they are free to 'find themselves'.

Well I started on the Mentalism route before I had actually heard the word Mentalism - the background I use to describe my journey to where I am now is totally true - I was a keen amateur magician as a kid, and I started performing close up at discos that I did and other functions in my late teens, but time the time I was 21 my interest in "traditional" magic had all but gone due to an interest in how tricks worked - the genuine psychology of it all - then I discovered mentalism (still before the internet I hasten to add) - people were performing the sort of thing that really captured my imagination.

Sorry if my card handling routines are now very rusty, and I can't perform more than the basic sleight of hand routines due to nearly 20 years of non practice - but my Mentalism show is a reflection of where I am really at. I am comfortable with it.

a good example is to look at kenton knepper...

word-play, psychological techniques, all kinds of heavy psychology, yet he's seen as, and portrays himself as a modern-day wizard...

he's himself...his own unique identity...

With anything, be it music, cinema or indeed magic, you get pale imitations and wanabes. They are the ones that will be forgotten whilst the true orignals will be remembered.

Showmanship is lacking a lot these days. The effect is a part of it, the performance is also just as much a vital part. When you seen modern magicians (kids and chavs mainly) saying "Pick a card, put it back, shuffle the deck, look i found it! Wicked, no?" you just think what's the point?
It doesn't entertain the spec and comes across as "Ha! I caught you out! That makes me better than you!"

Mentalism requires a solid performance where wording and your speaking voice are just as important, if not more so, than the effect itself.
A great speaker can make the most mundane effect seem like a miraculous revelation.

Phew, nearly started a fire there. I was in a reet strop last night and what actually made me flip was someone on another forum (not that I stray from here much but you know, gotta sow your oats now and again) mentioning that their card shows weren't having the impact they had previously so they were switching to mentalism instead. Turned out to be a 13 year old kid with ridiculously wealthy parents who'd spent hundreds of dollars on card stuff for him which he promptly got bored with so he decided to sell it all and get into mentalism.

The RGM thing by the way was me naming the first Jermay trick that came to my head.

So anyway, I like and respect mentalism and mentalists, I own a bit of material and read it out of interest but for now stick to what I know best. I don't have a problem with anyone having a varied taste or mix and matching a bit. But it does p**s me right off when people imagine they're better for trying to use suggestion, or demarcate so thoroughly that they have to sell all their close-up stuff before getting stuck into 13 Steps. Perhaps I can't articulate this properly and I know it doesn't matter at all in the grand scheme of things, unfortunately at 11 last night as I finally finished a long night of paperwork I was in the mood for shouting. Thanks for listening!