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Afternoon all, hope I'm not contravening any rules by posting pics (???)...

In the very early stages of my magic studies and I'm slowly making my way thru RRTCM and Bobos (with the help of Michael Jays notes).

My card magic is progressing ok... but my coin work is stalling as I continue to struggle thru classic palm and getting my hand as flat and natural as I can.

Just concentrating on 2p's at the moment and spent a whole day shopping yesterday attempting to keep it in position (had a slightly sore back this morning!!!)

Anyway, is it a case of just persistance and keep trying, trying, trying?
I'm trying my damn'dest to not 'curl' my fingers but in doing so my hand isn't relaxed at all and quite 'stressed'....

Here is where I'm at currently. Thanks for any help.

Dom......
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/ ... 1193677148

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/ ... 1193677172

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/ ... 1193677498

you're almost there, just keep at it. The more you do it the easier you'll find it is to hold the coin and the more natural it'll look. I used to sit at work holding a coin in the palm or have one palmed when out shopping. Any chance I got to practice it. You have to train the hand to be able to hold the coin

From your pictures it looks like the palm is correct. When I palm I can wiggle all my fingers and the thumb a little. Why may I ask are you trying to keep your hand flat. Do you walk around with your hand ridged all the time? Try catching yourself when you are doing things other them magic, glimpse your hand when they are at rest. Chances are they are not flat, fingers are probably naturally curled when the hands are relaxed. Look at photo's or paintings of people when relaxed. In time you will be able to go for the flat hand. Being natural is the key here. Although I do admit when around a bunch of magicians it is fun to show off that I let my hand go flat while palming a coin.

And definetly listen to Lady of Mystery. I dial the phone while classic palming, write things down, you name it, you can practice it almost anywhere, any time. If people say, hey what are you doing with that coin as you are at work then you may have an angle problem or at the very least you will know you are doing something wrong.

Cheers, thats really helped my confidence guys to know I'm on the right track.
The reason I say I'd like it flat is for certain vanishes etc. I'm worried that as the hand palming moves away, an 'unflat' hand may be questioned thats all. (There was one I was looking at last night in Bobos but can't remember what it was called).

Many thanks again, I'll keep at it!

If you're stealing a coin away in the palm the trick here is to look at the hand where the coin's meant to be and not the one it's actually palmed in. You'll find that the spec will follow your gaze, it wont even enter their mind that the coin might be somewhere it's not meant to be.

Here is what I used to do. do the secret move, coin slips into classic palm so you can wiggle the fingers over that hand that no longer...well you know. Then there is a subtly I forget the name but look for it in Bobo or somebody here will know the name here. But basically go into finger palm then lift your hand to show the hand empty. And I've never been questioned. Then open the hand that supposedly has the coin and wham vanish complete.

The audience will follow your eyes, and baring that they will follow the moving object. Which at this point should be the coin you want the spectator to think has the coin.

Now and only because I can and like the practice, I vanish the coin, it goes into a back clip so I can openly gesture with the hand, now I can show both empty, then when the heat is off go into a classic palm or whatever. If you want more info I think this may have to go private, heck it probably should have already, but what the heck.

Ace.

One last final question.

Is it possible with practice to CP off a flat surface??

Mr. McCormack wrote:In the very early stages of my magic studies and I'm slowly making my way thru RRTCM and Bobos (with the help of Michael Jays notes).

Thank you for reading.

Presently, bmat and Lady of Mystery are doing a fine job helping out, here.

From the pictures, you have a good grasp of the mechanics, so now it all comes down to practice, persistance and patience. As I've stated in my dissertation on Bobo, the calssic palm is terribly hard to get perfect. And, don't go by David Roth - I am convinced that he is a feak of nature in his ability to open the hand so flat and retain that damn coin.

What you have, presently, in your pictures, are what Ammar calls "The Starfish Hand." You must avoid this. Like the plague.

Without a coin, allow you hand to hang naturally at your side. This is what your hand should look like. Agreed, the flatness is a subtlety that suggests that you couldn't possibly be hiding anything, but it is far from necessary. Go for naturalness first and foremost. Also, keep in mind that when in classic palm, the only angle that is telling is directly underneath the hand...So, if your hand hangs naturally to your side with coin palmed, then your leg/side of body hides the only bad angle that you have.

Again, with coins, it is naturalness of motion, body language and subtlety that sells it. So, rather than hold your hand in the way that is pictured, simply hold it naturally. Much as using a TT, you can further add to the naturalness by allowing your thumb to rest on your first and second fingers. This is a stage technique that will translate to your coins in close up. By placing the tip of thumb to the tip of the middle and/or first fingers, you give you hand a natural curvature - much better than the starfish.

Give that a try. Remember, you're not pushing your thumb into those fingers, but resting it very gently in that position. Also, in that position, you'll find that the classic palm is almost automatic. As you continue to practice, keep in mind that you should only be using enough pressure to hold the coin in place - not a death grip.

Further, look at the curvature of your thumb pictured. You don't want that to happen. When the thumb is in that kind of pose, it shows that your hand is tense. That tension draws attention. Try to relax your thumb. At first, your hand will probably shake whilst you force the thumb to refuse that curvature, but with time, practice and patience, you'll be able to firmly hold that coin while your thumb and fingers maintain the minimum grip to hold the coin and look very natural.

Also, if you pay it no attention then your spectators will pay it no attention. It is here that routining becomes most important. As I've discussed, if you feign to put a coin in one hand and immediately make it disappear, then your audience is left with nowhere to go but to suspect your other, dirty hand. You must routine. When holding the coin back, you must be going somewhere, not just vanishing a coin.

Further, when in classic palm, if you can pick up an object (that you've routined in for this specific purpose), it helps to hide the fact that your hand is dirty. There are a couple of reasons for this. First, it allows the hand to be held in a natural position whilst still palming. Second, it is an accepted fact (in the laymen's eyes) that the human hand is incapable of doing two things at once - again, a subtlety. So, if you are using a pen in your routine, then pick the pen up with the now dirty hand. Give this a try right now...Classic palm your coin and pick up a pen. Hold that pen. Take a look - looks pretty natural and seems to say that your hand is otherwise empty, doesn't it?

Even as such, you should be able to go from one palm to another quickly, smoothly and with conviction. Going from what bmat is talking about above (the Ramsay subtlety, which is specifically, pictured on page 47 - it is figure 3), you start in classic palm. When the hand drops to the side and you're safe in the fact that heat is off of it, you let the coin drop into finger palm then come up when it serves your purposes, using the Ramsay subtlety to show the hand unmistakably empty. Using sleights in conjunction with each other, body motion and body language altogether and you will have terrifically deceptive magic.

But, it is in routining that you can put all of these things together. This need to routine is probably the single reason that folks consider coin magic harder than card magic. With card magic, you can show a single trick and call it a day. With coin magic, you MUST routine (unless you are using gaffed coins). It is nearly impossible to show one, single coin trick...You have to be going somewhere with a coin trick - there must be more than a coin vanishes and is brought back (even then, bringing the coin back is a second trick and a miniature routine, as it were).

Just keep working on it, Dom. As is being stated, you have the mechanics down, now it is just a matter of time and practice.

Mike.

Well isn't that simply one shining example of how good this forum is.

I'm aware that I don't post often but believe me I read posts everyday and find TalkMagic my bible of reference.

Michael, (and the others) I can't stress enough how grateful I am for your time. Thanks so much for taking the time to answer with such depth, I really appreciate it.

I think I understand much better the technique and important subtleys of the CP and indeed understand my 'starfish' habit!!

Thanks again, I am going to crack this and once I do I'll think about the 'routineing' which I fully understand is fundamental to the flow and subsequent success in any piece of coin magic.

Excellent.

Thanks Again
Dom

*SLAPS MY FORHEAD, LEAVING PALMED COIN BEHIND* Ramsay subtlety, why can't I remember the names to these things?

i always get thease two confused ramsey and capps that is.
nothing much i can add as its been coverd in detail but i'll give you some anecdotal wisdom.

try using a £2 coin, as I'm asuming you only want to use uk currency, for a change it will give you a new perspective on your cp.
ok do the spider man web shooter, ie midle fingers into the palm and other fingers pointing straight, thumb at right angles, next curl your first finger in and rest your thumb gently ontop of it at the first joint and little finger just curled in leaving the nuckle sticking out.
if you look at it from the back it should look like batmans head, now feel how much pressure is on your midle fingers, not a lot is it, thats how much you require to hold the coin, now try it with a coin.
you have asimilar problem i had for a long time, under developed little finger mussle and mr seige has a great answer that helped me redevelope my hand, a squash ball.

quick practise routine for your classic, show coin and retention vanish it, bring closed hand forward and point to it with dirty hand, remember bat man as you classic palm, tapping finger on closed hand give ample time to position correctly.
wave hand over top of closed fist, refer to spider vanish for this empty hand convincer, then take that hand out of play, rest on table or to your side.
take your time showing the hand empty, blow on it, open each finger slowly, always looking at the hand, will it to vanish.
wile you pause for the vanish to sink in drop coin to finger rest or remain in classic depending on the type of load you wish to do, load coin and slowly reveal the coin.

a few loads to consider and research, han pin chan, see sankey no more card tricks, heal clip load, ie load into heal clip wilst saying i want you to grab my wrist, drop in wisrt turning over and bertini's pinky load, bertini revolunonary coin magic i belive.

hope this rambling is of use.

Lady of Mystery wrote:you're almost there, just keep at it. The more you do it the easier you'll find it is to hold the coin and the more natural it'll look. I used to sit at work holding a coin in the palm or have one palmed when out shopping. Any chance I got to practice it. You have to train the hand to be able to hold the coin

nothing else needed... im classic palming a coin now while im typing and clicking... and when im writing... you wont believe how much it helps...

do as you are just curl your fingers naturally.. thats all id have to stay..

Very good idea to post your pics - a picture speaks a thousand words and all that.

It's helped me too as I am a complete coin novice.

I.D wrote:do as you are just curl your fingers naturally.. thats all id have to stay..

That's a great bit of advice. A lot of people learning the classic palm look like they're hanging onto the coin for dear life—fingers frozen straight.

In actual fact, holding a coin in C.P. and making it look natural makes the palming easier, if anything.

Try this:
Hold your hand out, palm-up, but RELAXED, i.e. don't use any muscles... notice your fingers aren't straight-out... they are curled in.

Now, rotate your wrist 180° leaving the fingers 'floppy'. See the way they 'hang'.

Now, follow the two steps above, but with a coin in classic palm.