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In the chapter on self-workers from the Stein and Day Handbook (or any of the other titles under which it has been republished), Marvin Kaye describes a simple effect he calls Find The Ball. In brief, while the magician's back is turned, the spectator puts a ball under one of three cups and mixes the cups around, after which the magician locates the ball. It works on a simple but counter-intuitive mathematical principle.

Marvin introduces the effect saying, "It was shown to me twice by a magician who challenged me to figure it out on a bet. I lost a weekend's sleep trying to solve it - as well as the wager".

My question is whether this effect has some other title under which magicians who know it may recognise it, because I don't believe "Find The Ball" is an official name. The effect is very versatile as far as equipment goes (i.e. there are many alternatives to using cups and balls) so I'm particularly wondering whether it has a generic title that's independent of the equipment that happens to be used.

I've been working on a presentation which I intend to write about sometime, and when I do so I'd like to get the references right.

I don't have the text you mentioned, but the effect seems familiar to me.

Though, I seem to recall some restrictions being put on the spectator - is this the case in the effect you mention?

To avoid the possibility of revealing too much, I will answer in very general terms. The spectator is required to:

* Follow certain instructions.
* Convey certain information to the magician.

Those are the only types of restrictions. I'll send you more details via PM.

The one you describe was invented by Bob Hummer and is usually referred to as "the Hummer cups".

Barry

To try to verify your answer, I googled "Hummer Cups" and found nothing relevant, so I googled "Bob Hummer" and quickly found a trick under the title "Hummer's Mind Reader" which is similar to the trick I referred to, but not the same one (even allowing for differences of presentation).

Both tricks rely on an instruction for the spectator to swap the positions of the two unselected objects. However, "Hummer's Mind Reader" as described online depends upon the spectator being able to tell the three objects apart. Whereas the trick described by Marvin Kaye can be done with all three objects looking identical to the spectator, and instead depends upon the objects occupying named locations at any given time.

Can you confirm your answer, please? I just want to be sure.

In the presentation I've been working on, it's not the locations the objects occupy that are named, but rather, the lines that connect them. I arrange the three objects at the corners of a triangle that's red on one side, blue on another side, and yellow on the third side. That way the spectator can convey the relevant information with just a single word - a colour. (This is such an obvious improvement to Marvin's version that I'm sure other people have thought of it, and I'd be interested if you or anyone else can confirm this.)

You're making me feel less certain now! I'm not sure if the Hummer version involes swapping the cups more than once.

According to TA Waters in MMM, the Hummer effect is called "Mathematical 3-card monte principle" and can be found in his book "Bob Hummer's Collected Secrets". He says it is also discussed in detail in Martin Gardner's "Mathematics, Magic and Mystery". Hope that helps.

Barry

Everything helps . . . but for referencing purposes it's neater all round if I can say, "this effect is called X" instead of, "I tried to discover the name of this effect, but the most I could find out was that it may be called X, or if not, it's at least similar. Please contact me if you have better information".

I've sent you a copy of the PM that I sent Tyler.

Thanks for the PM. I suggest you get hold of the Martin Gardner book - it's published by Dover. I'm sure that should confirm the background.

Barry

the only thing i can think of that even comes close is the old al koran ruse with 3 tea cups and an object underneath - but have no idea which came first...no maths involved - so i doubt if they are connected...

The Marvin Kaye effect is a good deal more complex than the one I remembered, but they are related.

The one I recalled was in Corinda's 13 steps: Step Five (Blindfolds and X-ray Eyes), Part Two (Techniques), Number 10 (Prior Observation), Pages 139-141.

Corinda uses it as an example of being aware of one's surroundings to accomplish effects ("Don't waste your time gazing into a glass of gin - the Spirits won't help you!").

Corinda refers to it as an "... effect conceived by Bob Hummer and improved by Al Koran of locating a ten shilling note under one of three ordinary cups, which has to be found by the performer without looking under the cups -- and adapt[ed] it to use for a Blindfold trick."

More detail will be PM'ed to you shortly.

I've been talking about this with Mage Tyler via PM, and I think it would be a good idea to summarise for the group. Let's start from what Tyler wrote above.

Mage Tyler wrote:The one I recalled was in Corinda's 13 steps: Step Five (Blindfolds and X-ray Eyes), Part Two (Techniques), Number 10 (Prior Observation), Pages 139-141.

In accordance with standard etiquette I will not quote more text from a private message than is strictly necessary, but I think the following sentence is strictly necessary.

Mage Tyler via PM wrote:The possibility of multiple moves is mentioned almost as an after-thought with the advisory that the spectator must read aloud the changes that are made.

So basically, yes, it's essentially the same effect with multiple moves to make it seem more impossible. In the book I read it in (The Creative Magician's Handbook, which is a retitled reprint of The Stein and Day Handbook of Magic, 1973), Marvin Kaye writes:

Marvin Kaye wrote:Some performers have used Find the Ball as a mental effect, but this seems silly since calling out all the moves certainly makes any kind of telepathy suspect.

I imagine that Corinda chose to emphasise the simpler version (without multiple moves) on the basis that this is more suitable for mentalism. It's clear that elaborations on the basic trick have been around for a long while, and can perhaps be thought of as cousins with the basic Hummer effect as a common ancestor. That's all I've been able to find out; I still don't know the origin of the elaborations.

Update on this:

I have now written up my version of the trick on my magic blog Invisible Hoard in two parts. Firstly, a public summary of my presentation (which links back to this thread as a reference) and secondly a password-protected description with all the details.

Most Talkmagic contributors will have no trouble getting the password from me, if they ask.