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Hi guys,
Over the last couple of weeks, I've been compiling a short close-up card routine based around card cheating that revolves primarily around the aces. In a nutshell, I produce the aces magically, perform my version of jazz aces (as "the effect that got me into magic" then twist the aces ("how gamblers turn the cards over"), then finish with my version of shotgun aces, that involves a borrowed deck, the 4aces signed, and the deck handed around for the specs to shuffle, then the aces are located.

Anyway, here's the problem. I can't think of a suitable way to produce the aces at the beginning. Obviously, i don't want to cut to them, or produce them "shotgun" style, as this would render my finale (and a piece that I'm quite proud of actually) pretty much worthless. I have been contemplating using a l****** plm for the aces then switching them with 4 cards that are on the table to begin with (I'd show the indifferent cards first, feign surprise, then switch) , or perhaps a cl***** plm, then a pass to bring the aces to the top then a s****? Anyway, I'd really appreciate any suggestions you may have, as well as any ideas on how to improve my routine as a whole! (bear in mind I've only just started getting my detailed presentation right, so aspects of it may change in due course)..

PS, if any of you have an idea for me that might be deemed as exposure, then please feel free to PM me....

Thanks in advance!

(By the way mods, if anything I have said here is deemed as exposure then please feel free to delete this thread)

This is surely going to be controversial... but considering the entire presentation revolves around the aces being produced, why not just do a simple false shuffle and cut, and then calmly turn all four over from the top of the deck.

Dink. Dink. Dink.... Dink. Ladies and gentlemen, the four aces.

Less is more.

like someone else said on here about ACRs, start with a simple effect and build up towards a production from the most impossible situation. Like Queenie said, a false shuffle could be a good start - people might know what you've done (you may even be lucky enough to get a smart ass who sees right through it) this will only enhance the effects which follow.

Why not let the spectator discover the Aces. Shuffle the cards, hand them to the spectator, have them deal the cards into 4 piles. Reveal the 4 Aces on the top of each pile and then go into your routine.

You have a good routine. Let me say that right off the top.

Now, I'm unsure as to what you mean by "shotgun" style, but I do know a very nice quick production of the aces, right off the top. So, what do you mean by "shotgun" style? (Please forgive my ignorance in this.)

What I'm concerned about, though, is this:

"...then finish with my version of shotgun aces, that involves a borrowed deck, the 4aces signed, and the deck handed around for the specs to shuffle, then the aces are located."

You mean that you've done your routine up to this point, then you stop, get a borrowed deck, then a marker to write names, then have the spectators further shuffle the deck? Do you think that this is maybe over-proving the point?

You have a solid routine above. I personally feel (strictly opinion) that when you get to the finale, to stop and get a borrowed deck is purely an anti-climax. Even writing the names is maybe (just maybe) going too far.

Just my way of seeing it (based on writing and not actually seeing the routine). Just my thoughts...

Anyway, and again asking for you to forgive my ignorance, what, exactly, is a "shotgun" style ace revelation?

Mike.

The opening effect should establish exactly what you're trying to demonstrate. For me, if you're going for a cheating demonstration, flashy moves isn't the perfect choice (at the very least, not for the first effect). I would start with something more simple, something that builds the overall theme of the routine.

Myself, when I have done gambling/cheating routines of this sort, I begin with a simple conversation about playing cards, greed, and the desire to win. This is all done casually as a "fair" game of poker is dealt out. The cards are shown to be random hands, some good, some awful. Pointing this out, you talk about how greed and desire for money, for an edge - brought out the worst in some folks. They didn't want to rely on luck, they wanted to tip the odds in their favor.

As you're doing this, you've gathered up and shuffled the cards, dealing out another multiple hand poker game. At the conclusion, you turn over your cards, displaying the four aces, and say something along the lines of...

"And from that desire... the cheater emerged".

You can then go into any style routine you like. I used to use Dai Vernon's poker deal as my opener, but I eventually trimmed it down to a more simplified and casual presentation under the premise of a simple game of cards. The Vernon Poker deal is still, in my humble opinion, one of the best gambling demonstrations going.

So, to echo some of the others here - go for something more simple to start. It can still be powerful, but I like to set the tone with my first effect, and build upon that.

Michael - I do believe the "shotgun aces" in question is something like this:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=75STI8_SwEc

I also agree with Michael about keeping it to one deck and the drawbacks of over proving. I see the logic in introducing a new deck as playing up how fair everything is, but I would focus more on convincingly "losing" the aces in the deck and working from one deck, rather than breaking your flow and working in a new deck.

Remember, there's an underlying theme running through this from the start. You are TELLING THEM this is a demonstration of card cheating. They already know something is up. It's not the deck that is suspect, it's you. Your demonstration, by the very nature of what you're talking about, somewhat implies that you are working from a normal deck of cards. It's not the cards that are tricky - it's you.

This is the difference between a purely magical presentation and a gambling demonstration. For me, the necessity to prove your deck as "above board" has never been a problem. At least, that's how it was when I worked these kinds of routines. It offers a sense of freedom (in that people won't bother you with "let me see those cards"). However, your technique needs to be flawless...

what's that one in RRTCM near the back where you deal out 5 poker hands, talking about dodgy dealing? you end up with you having the four aces...could you use that as your opening patter and it then gives you the 4 aces to boot...

or is it a too long an effect?

what about cut four quick sl**-c*ts and produce them that way?

Michael Jay wrote:You have a good routine. Let me say that right off the top.

Now, I'm unsure as to what you mean by "shotgun" style, but I do know a very nice quick production of the aces, right off the top. So, what do you mean by "shotgun" style? (Please forgive my ignorance in this.)

What I'm concerned about, though, is this:

"...then finish with my version of shotgun aces, that involves a borrowed deck, the 4aces signed, and the deck handed around for the specs to shuffle, then the aces are located."

You mean that you've done your routine up to this point, then you stop, get a borrowed deck, then a marker to write names, then have the spectators further shuffle the deck? Do you think that this is maybe over-proving the point?

You have a solid routine above. I personally feel (strictly opinion) that when you get to the finale, to stop and get a borrowed deck is purely an anti-climax. Even writing the names is maybe (just maybe) going too far.

Just my way of seeing it (based on writing and not actually seeing the routine). Just my thoughts...

Anyway, and again asking for you to forgive my ignorance, what, exactly, is a "shotgun" style ace revelation?

Mike.

"shotgun" style is in reference to the effect "shotgun aces" where the 4 aces are produced quickly from the deck (if you youtube it, then you''ll probably find some performances).

My thinking behind the borrowed deck-signed aces part was partly down to something I read in "strong magic" ie. what are the main things that the layman must believe in order for the effect to be strong. I cam up with

1. the aces placed into the deck are the same aces I pull out (that's where the signing comes in as a sort of "convincer" if you like)
2. I'm not using trick cards (where the borrowed deck comes in)
3. I can't have a clue where the aces are in the deck (where the spectators shuffling comes in).

The way I have been thinking of this presentation was to build up this effect from the beginning eg. "Now tonight ladies and gentlemen, I have something special for you. An effect that I first saw performed by a professional card shark, and one that, rumour has it, all card sharks have to master before they consider themselves true masters of their art (all complete lies obviously) buit first, allow me to show you the effect that started me down the wonderful road of magic all those years ago....... (then go into opening effect). Now I thought that if I presented it like that, then my audience would be less inclined to worry so much about the pauses in borrowing a deck, signing the aces etc. as (in their minds), this is extremely difficult, and what I will be showing them requires great great skill.

Now remember that as I said, my presentation is in the early stages, and my way of doing it could bring up problems.

I hope this clears some questions up for you Mike.

Thatnks for all your advice so far guys

To eliminate possible questions about the deck, why don't you start with a brand-new pack of cards? I once did an effect where a pack was opened in front of the audience, shown to be in new deck order, then I did some shuffles and dealt the four aces off the top.

Of course...I might have cheated just a little (or a lottle - let's just say that I am far from being a great card magician).

You might even be skilled enough to do that for real!

Doesn't handing the cards to the spectator for him to shuffle eliminate (in a lay person's mind) the chances of it being a trick deck? It seems like an awful waste of time in the routine to get someone else's cards. The only time I can even half see it making sense is at a magic club, and who cares what effects play for other magicians?

I have to agree with Part-Timer, a sealed (or "sealed") deck is probably the way to go.

When you're dealing with borrowed cards you have a lot of potential problems:
- What situations are you going to be in where people have cards you can borrow?
- If you intend on marking the cards the deck is now essentially trash. Yah, you could say it was "keepsake" but what if the person you got the deck from didn't really like the trick? Now they feel cheated.
- You could set up a situation where multiple specs bring decks of cards with them, but then you'd have to specify "new" so you don't get rubbish cards you can't work slights with. This means that multiple people have to do an extra step for something that is supposed to be their entertainment.
- You could make a situation where you replace the cards you borrow and mark with a fresh deck to that spectator, but if you've had multiple people bring decks then they're 'out' the money. Not a big deal to most, but you never know with people.
- etc. etc. etc.

With a sealed deck you can show it out. At which point you can fairly open it or let them open it, you can take it at this point to show that it is in new deck order or let them shuffle.

A few extra steps for you to find the aces again, but you save yourself a lot of other headaches.

borrowing the deck half way through does seem a little odd. particularly as the specs may think 'why didnt he do that to start with...?'. a spec shuffle should be enough. making aces appear at the start of a gambling routine seems just as out of place, and maybe too strong for twisting aces to follow.

how about ending with a vanish or vanish/location? something along the lines of a card shark cheating by holding back aces? or maybe even a vanishing pip ending? this may have more meaning as the attention may shift from the gambling to the cards themselves after such visual effects.

I agree point 1 and point 2 but maybe you could compromise 3.

The purpose of a gambler routine is to demonstrate great skill (unlike in a conventional magic effect). Thus if you JUST are demonstrating skills you do not need to have the spectators shuffle the cards.

I still think a good gambler routine need to contain some real killer magic.
So if you can have them shuffle the cards and you can find the aces this is of course brilliant. Since people usually do not carry a deck of cards around it is hard to borrow a deck of cards anyway.

On a number of occasions I have blatantly done a bit of PreSh.. that create the illusion that I apparently borrow a single deck of cards (e.g. one that the kids just collected from their room). When you do this with a "borrowed" deck you get the best of both worlds!

1) You get the very strong response you always get if you use a borrowed deck (did you ever try to do card magic to a few strangers playing cards? Please notice how much stronger response you get compared to you just bringing your own cards).

2) You get cards that are easy to work with. As I am sure you know to borrow a deck of cards can be a nightmare. Sometimes a borrowed deck can be harder to work with than a bicycle deck that just have been dipped in a bucket of water

The "borrowed" deck has of course an interesting bicycle design you have never seen before (a bit of double talk is sometimes needed at this stage).

The style of card magic I do is strictly non-flourish since I brand myself more as a mystery entertainer, but I think my approach also work very well for your style of magic.

To summerize:
Do a bit of PreSh.. if the situation allows this, otherwise don't bother.
Do you not forget to emphasize how difficult it is to do card magic with the cards. Be blunt and explain that magicians usually use special cards that are easy to work with. Show the spectators how the borrowed cards "stick" to each other and make the challenge more difficult. I am sure you can come up with your own moves that make the cards appear difficult to handle. Then after you have "warmed" up the deck with a few flourishes you are ready for your gambler routine.....Remember to ask if its OK you write on the cards (otherwise uses signed stickers).....

Final remark: Only caveat is that the maneuver might cost you a deck of cards, but a DS (the easiest in the world since it happens after the show) allow you to replace the gimmicked deck you introduced after the stacked deck, with some cheap and sticky seconds. This solve the problem and confirm the validity of your "sticky card" demonstration.

PMed you my thoughts

Great routine cymru, and great thinking. Plus lots of very worthy advice.

I would just add one point: when putting together this kind of routine, try to think in the same way that a bona fide card sharp would, not like a magician. A real card sharp will have no idea about how to do card tricks. He just knows how to cheat really really well. Get into his head and let the routine come from him. Instead a planning a magic routine based around cheating, imagine you are an old card cheat and you want to do a demonstration for a young buck that you're training up to be your successor.

I'm taking this too far aren't I?

Now my creative juices are really flowing!

I'm a psychic reader not a card sharp. However if I wasn't a psychic reader I would be a card sharp. As well as being fascinated by psychics and mediums, I'm also fascinated by cons and cheats. Some would say that the two areas are not disconnected.

Have you ever seen the Sting? A 1970's movies about con-men and cardies. If you haven't I would really suggest that any aspiring cardie watch it. The card routine on board the train is wonderful and is something that I would base any card sharp routine on - apart from where he drops the cards. Well, perhaps there's even a place for that kind of showmanship in a good gambling/con routine.

Somethimes I wish I'd picked up RRTCM before 78 Degrees of Wisdom.