talkmagic.co.uk

Some good tips there. Cheers. I have been looking for further advice on showmanship. Does anyone know of any books that they can recommend on this subject?

Magic and Showmanship by Henning Nelms is quite a good read.

I would go with plenty of female nudity. If the magic and presentation is rubbish then it doesn't matter. You will be guaranteed at least half the audience would have enjoyed it alot!

I am afraid that I cannot endorse the Henning Nelms book. It is perfectly dreadful and I do not approve of it. Besides the chap never did a show in his life. Like many amateur magicians he was good at pontificating but not so good at the actual doing of it.

Mind you he also wrote a book about cartooning. I do hope he drew at least half a dozen cartoons in his life. I shall assume that he did since I am known to look on the bright side of things.

I did look him up and read some of the said book on line. I then noticed that he wrote about a lot of subjects other than magic. If one person can get something out of this book then it was worth writing. It may just have that missing link printed inside it's thin bindings.

It is not a thin book. It is fairly substantial. And so is the amount of c*** (not the best) in it. I well remember Harry Stanley borrowing it from and when he returned it he said "it's all padding"

There IS a thin book called Showmanship and Presentation by Edward Maurice written by a real professional. It would be far more useful. Alas it is out of print. Worth looking out for.

I would be wary of books about magic presentation written by actors or those who have had theatrical training. In my experience they talk more c*** (not the best) than anyone else. And they don't show much expertise in performing either. They usually talk too loud under the mistaken impression that they are "projecting" and they sound dreadfully stilted and artificial in their patter. No doubt they have learned it off by heart as actors do.

thanx for that mark. I will look out for it. I didn't know how thick the book was it was a stab in the dark from the write up that I read. Hopefully I shall find a copy of your recomendation. Cheers

I would also suggest Strong Magic even though Darwin Ortiz doesn't actually do any himself. However the preaching is excellent even if the practicing isn't.

Then there is "Our Magic" which I think has another title in a Dover paperback. "Maskelyne on Presentation in Magic" or some such guff. This is brilliant stuff but you do have to have some patience and intelligence to wade through it. It certainly won't be suitable for the average young hot shot that just wants to learn by watching DVDs and never reads a book. They won't get past page 6.

However the best place to learn how to present magic properly (or at any rate close up magic) is in the back section of Expert Card Technique as I have explained multiple times.

In the end YOU are the magic. It isn't the tricks-it is YOU. In other words it helps to have a bit of a personality.

I always have to laugh when someone puts down the Henning Nelms book. Nelms wasn't a professional magician, it's true. But, then again, it isn't specifically a book on magic, it's a book on stage technique. And, fact is, Nelms was a producer and director of stage.

I guess, if you want to learn stage, you learn from someone who knows whereof he speaks, like Nelms.

But, don't take my word for it - Tommy Wonder, Darwin Ortiz and Henry Hay all speak highly of the Nelms book as well as reference it in their own works.

Of couse, Mr. Lewis will tell you that he knows much better than those three highly respected men in our industry.

Paul, listen to Lommy - she isn't leading you wrong.

Mike.

Tommy Wonder despite his arty farty conversation and observations was a street pitchman who made his living working the worm. Darwin Ortiz writes a great book but doesn't seem to practice what he preaches since he does the worst Macdonald's Aces I have ever seen in my life and Henry Hay's real name was June. How can you have faith in a man with a girl's name?

These people are all very commendable but they are not MARK LEWIS. If I say something it should naturally be taken as gospel.

The book is full of bad advice and I wasted a lot of time with it when I was younger. Furthermore as far as I can remember it was advising on close up magic rather than stage. Theatrical people should advise on stage not close up magic.

And come to think of it they shouldn't advise on stage magic either. As I have stated theatrical types have no idea what they are talking about in regard to magic. I can always spot a magician who has had theatrical training. They are usually bloody awful and talk too loud. Furthermore they always look far too pleased with themselves.

Mr Jay always reminds me of Henning Nelms. Full of yap but actually knows nothing whatsoever. However that doesn't stop him pontificating. I bet he doesn't do 6 shows a year. Mind you that would be more than Henning Nelms ever did.

Harry Stanley who knew a thing or two about showbusiness said the Helms book was mediocre and if he thought so then so do I.

I've been reading The Fitzkee Trilogy since I think Mandrake (Was it Mandrake?) said something good about it... I couldn't find where to buy it... But it's online... I don't consider that exposure, but...

Here is an example of the sort of twaddle put forward by Henning Nelms:


"No matter how astonishing a trick may be, it suffers from one major fault - it has no point. Suppose you could work miracles. Suppose that, without coming near me, you simply gestured toward my pocket and told me to put my hand in it. I did so and took out a ham sandwich. This would no doubt amaze me, but after I recovered from my surprise my only feeling would be, "So what?"

But suppose I say, "I'm hungry," and you reply, "I can fix that. Look in your left coat pocket." When I do so, I find a sandwich. This has a point. It makes sense. You cannot work that sort of miracle, but you can add meaning to your conjuring"

Claptrap! Of course a trick has a point if it is astonishing. The point is that it makes people gasp and bow down before you. If you have to wait until you add "meaning" you belong in the arty farty school of "wonder" and while you are trying to add "wonder" and "meaning" someone like me will be getting twice the reaction you are getting because I am a little more street wise and know guff when I see it.

As for the astonishing claptrap about the ham sandwich I can assure all the Nelms devotees that if you make a bloody great ham sandwich appear in someone's pocket they won't give a toss whether they are supposed to be hungry or not. They certainly won't be saying "so what" as Henning contends. They will be saying "Holy Mother of God! How the hell did that happen?"

Nelms goes on to admit that such a trick can't be done and it isn't practical. In other words Harry Stanley was right. The book consists of padding. How the hell are you supposed to make someone say "I feel hungry" anyway?

No. The man never did a trick in his life. I prefer to take my advice from the experienced. Of course that rules out Mr Jay as well as Mr Nelms.

All this claptrap about "meaning" and "wonder" might be all right for Eugene Burger and the mystery school baloney but it isn't correct for the real world. Try it one night for an audience of inebriated twits and see how far it gets you.

Mr Jay always reminds me of Henning Nelms. Full of yap but actually knows nothing whatsoever. However that doesn't stop him pontificating. I bet he doesn't do 6 shows a year.

How much? Put your money where your mouth is. I will take you up on this bet, so let me know how much you want to lose.

I prefer to take my advice from the experienced. Of course that rules out Mr Jay as well as Mr Nelms.

Well, let's see...I can't speak for Nelms even though it is a simple matter of record that he made his living in theater, but for myself I have 35 years in magic with nearly 30 years of doing paid for shows. Over the years, I have fallen back on doing magic full time when between jobs and for the last 6 months have done nothing but magic to earn my living.

I don't mind you taking on that character that you do but when you resort to pure lies, then you are stepping over the line. At least have the class to know your facts before you start in with your libelous tripe.

"No matter how astonishing a trick may be, it suffers from one major fault - it has no point. Suppose you could work miracles. Suppose that, without coming near me, you simply gestured toward my pocket and told me to put my hand in it. I did so and took out a ham sandwich. This would no doubt amaze me, but after I recovered from my surprise my only feeling would be, "So what?"

But suppose I say, "I'm hungry," and you reply, "I can fix that. Look in your left coat pocket." When I do so, I find a sandwich. This has a point. It makes sense. You cannot work that sort of miracle, but you can add meaning to your conjuring"

It's a fact, magic really does have no point. You'll find that anything without a point usually suffers from being terribly boring. Ever listened to someone talk who has no point? Or watch a program with absolutely no point? Magic is the only form of entertainment that I can think of that has absolutely no point. And we call it entertaining.

No wonder we are the bottom of the barrel when it comes for people to decide exactly what kind of entertainment they want at their function.

Some magic does have a point. "Anniversary Waltz" always goes down exceptionally well and the couple who you give the card to will keep it for years, decades, to come. Why? Because it has a point. And that's what Nelms is getting at.

I really shouldn't need to explain that...

Anyway, Mark, what say that you leave libel out of your posts from here on out, okay?

Mike.

I am quite sure that when Mr Jay "performs" magic there is no point to it and I wouldn't disagree with him there. As for "libel" I would prefer to term it "speculation".

I note that he says he performs between jobs. I wonder why he can't keep one. No doubt something to do with anger management issues and imbibing too much in the devil's buttermilk. The attitude that causes someone to make repeated phone calls in a threatening manner over harmless internet postings is the attitude that loses you a job. Let us hope that Mr Jay behaves in a more civil manner when he is booked for an engagement. That is if he actually does any. So far no proof has been provided.

I am afraid that performing for the last 6 months because you are out of work does not make you a professional magician.

There is a point to magic and that is it should be mystifying and entertaining. That is the only reason for doing it. Adding meaningless terms like "meaning" means nothing whatever. And I mean that.

Instead of worrying about "meaning" and imaginery ham sandwiches in equally imaginery pockets it might be more helpful if the magician develops a personality.

I am not alone in debunking the Nelms book. I am glad that there are other people in the magic community who can tell bunk when they see it.

now I've been biting my tongue for quite a while but I'm having a bit of a rubbish day so feel in the mood for a little rant.

Mark Lewis, I really don't understand why, when ever you read something that you don't understand or agree with, we have to put up with all this old rubbish you spout out about it. Just because YOU don't agree with something, doesn't mean that other people wont find some value in it. The book I said about is one that's given me alot of food for thought over my own performances. I agree that not all of it is 100% right for everyone's performance styles and that there's alot in there that I've not agreed with but just for the fact that it's made me stop and question what I'm doing has made it more than worth reading. Some of those things I've questioned, I've decided that I was right in the first place and haven't changed and some of the things I've been able to make huge improvements in my performances.

But this isn't about the book now, you're making personal attacks on members of this forum, once again. And they person you're attacking happens to be someone who I've taken a lot of good advice from and someone I've got alot of respect for.

I do appreciate that you know what you're talking about and I have taken some good advice from your posts, but I think Mr Lewis it's about time that you just grew up and stopped acting like a little boy in the playground.

I'll now sit back and wait to be called a silly, excitable girl again.