talkmagic.co.uk

Gary Dickson wrote:It has to do with the rudeness of some poeple responding to requests for information. It is disgraceful behaviour. I don't like it, I won't take part in it nor will I defend it.

I agree entirely (see my first post on this thread). In many cases, it's impossible to tell if someone is a genuine magician, but fishing for a method, a genuine magician looking for some justifiable help, or someone who's just trying to find out how a trick works.

That's why I asked for more details. It is not mandatory to post an introduction, but I think it's fair to ask for extra information when someone's very first post is to ask for something that might help them find out how a trick is done.

It's wrong to assume that a new person is merely on the lookout for secrets, but I don't think it's wise to be too helpful to someone who hasn't indicated any kind of real interest in magic beyond wanting to know how something is done.

EDIT: By the way, see also MasterCyde's reply at the bottom of page 1 for a rather more forceful (and quite justifiable) view.

Two wrongs don't make a right.

Part Timer: I thought your response to the request was most reasonable. However, the thread soon degenerated and this poor person basically had the * ripped out of him.

MasterCyde, I appreciate your frustration. However, etiquette is not the same as rules. It is not compulsory to post an introduction. Maybe I did respond too hastily and perhaps I was responding to the replies, rather than the initial question, if that makes sense.

Gary Dickson wrote:Maybe I did respond too hastily and perhaps I was responding to the replies, rather than the initial question, if that makes sense.

It does to me! But if you admit that perhaps your response was perhaps too hasty, why is it still there?

While it may have been hasty, I don't feel it was unethical. If I had made an unethical statement then I would be inclined to remove it.

Do you really think that telling a layperson the name of a specific trick on request (which you know will enable them to look it up online) is appropriate?

I think you're potentially undermining the support you'd otherwise have had.

Part Timer: I don't see why people supporting my views on this issue should be affected by what information I give to other people. If that is the view of the members of this forum, then I'll have to consider my continued involvement.

Telling someone the name of a trick is not unethical, in my view. Whereas insulting someone for asking a question is. Actually, I need to think about this for a little while. After all, if someone asked me in person what a trick was called there is no way I would tell them. Hmm.

I'll give it serious consideration, on its own merits. Not because I want people to support me.

No, they aren't logically linked, but this is an internet forum!

I think you've asked the right question; would you tell someone the name of this if they asked you face to face?

Part-Timer wrote:I think you've asked the right question; would you tell someone the name of this if they asked you face to face?

As a (hopefully) logical extension thereof, I think the following variations are worth consideration:

Would you tell someone the name of this if they asked you face to face during a performance?

Would you tell someone the name of this if they asked you face to face at a magic club meeting?

I agree with Gary, and the constant abuse given to those that stop by are one of the reasons I've been less active on the forum as of late. Even coming from those that experienced the same bullying themselves when they first joined us.

Giving a spammer selling shoes a hard time is one thing - insulting a kid that is at least showing an interest by voicing some curiosity is another.

Absolutely, Mage Tyler. The fact that different situations might produce different answers was (I hope) implicit in my other posts, but I think it was worth tying it all together. Thanks.

the exposure issue is entirely secondary here.

is exposure in general a bad thing? hell yes. in this case however i would support Gary if he named the trick, sent the original poster a deck, told him to practice it for 20 minutes and then sent him out to perform it unprofessionally in the hometowns of all the original posters.

there was a time at some point in your lives where you saw a trick, thought "hey thats cool", and, unlike the majority of people it didnt fly out of your head in 10 minutes but it intrigued you and you sought it out and learned it and learned more and became a magician but it all stemmed from that original interest.

ok he came onto the forum and basically asked for the answers, but he didnt say "hey, tell me how this is done" he asked for information, and ok he didnt post in the introductions forum, how many of you sat down for an hour when you first logged in here and read all the rules and information before you got started?

there is nothing to suggest this guy isn't looking to learn and is at that first step. coming on here and getting helpful legitimate advice is as valid a first step as finding a magic shop, maybe buying a book ould be better, but i didnt read any replies recommending any. it's certainly a better approach than discovering ellusionist and getting a magical lobotomy

You decided though, as happens a lot, to knock him off the first step, bneat him to death with your wands, stick him in a velvet drawstring bag and dump him in the ocean.

you were there once people, reign in the natural arrogance of the magician personality and no, the fact that some of the original responses were hilarious does not excuse you!

CutToTheAce wrote:there is nothing to suggest this guy isn't looking to learn and is at that first step.

True, but there's also nothing to suggest that he wasn't just after the name of an effect to Google/YouTube. You have no way of knowing which of those options it was.

Politely asking for some more information does no harm either way. Offering generic advice is also good, but he might have been a relative newcomer to magic, who already knows some basics. Why not ask?

Right then, I've deleted my post naming the effect.

This is for a couple of reasons.

Firstly, I was really responding to those who responded to the initial post and this was partly fuelled by anger. So my motives were a little bit muddy.

Secondly, this discussion has raised questions about the nature of exposure and how far we should take this as magicians.

Thirdly, as well as us having a responsibility to those joining our forum, we have a responsibility to each other as performers. I would not like my behaviour to make it difficult for other people to perform the effects they wish to.

All the best
Gary