talkmagic.co.uk

Hello everyone,

I trust you are all well and happy.

Recently I've noticed a trend on this forum which I dislike. It leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth. I thought it would be prudent to have a reasonable and adult discussion of the issue. What is this trend?

We get a lot of people on here who see a trick and they're blown away. So they come here asking for the trick. Some come asking for the secret and some for the name of the trick, so that they can buy or youtube it.

What response do they get?

They get a barrage of abuse and insults. I won't be quoting people, but I'm sure you've all seen the threads.

For a while now I've wanted to address this, but I've actually been too angry to make a coherent point.

I feel this is inappropriate behaviour.

"1. No abuse of any kind will be tolerated."

This is the first rule of the forum (see Rules an Etiquette). No abuse of any kind. You'll note that there is no provision for abusing those who ask what we consider to be stupid questions.

In a recent thread I was mildly castigated for pointing someone in the direction of the ID. I posted this because the person was just getting abuse from people who should know better. I ask you, if these posts annoy you so much why do you read them? Why respond? Such petty insults are beneath us.

So, I think it's time all of you cyber bullies asked yourself a question. Would you respond in the same fashion to someone who was stood in front of you? Would you dare? I think not. I'll tell you this, if someone spoke to me the way some of you lot respond, just for asking a question there would be hell to pay. I'm sure if someone spoke to you in that fashion you would be less than pleased.

So, I'm sure I've stirred up a hornets nest.

Please bear in mind, my intention in starting this thread is to open up an honest, reasonable and adult discussion about our responsibilities to others when posting. My intention is not to start an argument or reprimand individuals (you'll notice I've not mentioned any names).

Best wishes
Gary

I don't really have a lot to add, but wanted to show I (largely) agree with this.

People post things in the wrong bits of the forum, or post the same thing more than once, or don't write very well in English. We can still be polite to them.

Even where someone really is just trying to find out how a trick is done, we don't have to be condescending or rude. In many cases, it will be impossible to know for sure that they are not a magician genuinely looking for some help. At least give them the chance to explain themselves better.

EDIT: However, handing out the name of an effect on a platter, on request from someone we don't know a thing about, is not the way to respond either.

I agree with most of what you've said here.

I'm not sure about responding with the name of tricks to everyone who asks for them..

Although you haven't personally named anyone, I feel my response in another thread has somewhat fueled your post. I'd just like to take the time to point out I was never 'abusive'.

Thank you

I stayed away from that entire thread because it seriously irked me. I will be the first to admit that there are times that I come across somewhat harsh, and by the same token there has been times where people took my words to be harsh when they were not meant to be. As of late I have been trying not to post while I am annoyed at something, (usually I am not successfull because I am often annoyed at something).

The thread to which you are referring I found to be particularly rude because there was a brief moment where we could have taken somebody who may have been looking for method but we had a golden opportunity to take another into the brotherhood of magicians.

We could have referred this person to a magic shop or perhaps steered him in the direction of a magic club in the area or perhaps even recommend a book such as Mark Wilson's course. And explained the nuances of magic and performance.

There were plenty of avenue's open to us. But as we all can see the other route was chosen. Worse yet a slew of false information was given and although we as magicians can see were chock full of satire the sad truth is it just shows why magicians as a group are pretty much the joke of the industry.

And yes as one person suggested it would be nice to keep some things secret. Think however if the secrets were that great the majority of us would not be here now.

Besides the best kept secret in magic still seems to be a secret to magicians despite the fact that it is discussed to no end on every forum every publication, every magic class and every magic club. And if you want to know what it is, simply browse magic talk and see if you can figure it out.

MasterCyde: fair point. I thought about that five minutes later and decided I had better edit the post as I really have no intention of doing that. I suppose I wanted to point out how strongly I felt about it, but really just starting this thread will do that.

Also, my comments were not were not directed specifically at you. In fact, it was Part Timer's response to my post that got me thinking about starting this thread (although they weren't directed at him either) and to be fair, that particular thread is not the only one with harsh responses, it just happened to be the one where I responded.

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See the following thread. Here is somebody new to posting on the boards but has probably been lurking for a while. A perfectly legit question is asked, yet look how the question has to be prefaced. with a "don't cut my wiener off" even if said in jest it shows the tendancy of the board.

Figaro wrote:Hello everyone!

im pretty new here. so dont cut my weener off if I do something wrong, but i had a quick question;

Have you ever heard of the Die in box prediction? I cant find it anywhere.

its similair to the die cypher trick i guess. only this one is bigger, and made out of wood. also comes with a wooden box. i know how it works, but i dont think i can expose it here.

it goes like this;

you give the box and the die to a spectator, you turn around and they can put any number on top, then with your back still turned, you announce what number theyve chosen. works everytime.

I would love to have one of those, I dont have the knowledge to build one.

oh yeah, the trick also features in derren browns Pure Effect book.

anyone know where i can find one or build one?

thank you very much.

Gary - you're spot on with your comments.

There is an air of arrogance starting to creep in on some quarters that reads if you don't agree with someone or something, then insult them.

Gary,

I don't believe (as a rule) in being rude to people. However, I don't like being conned either. I haven't seen the thread in question (I don't think?), but in general, as far as I can see, the general mindset of these people seem to be 'I'll trick them into thinking I'm interested in magic, or that I'm a real magician just so I can get this or that secret'.

They don't have any real interest in the subject, or respect for the art, and are often quite sneeky in the way they ask questions, indicating that they are simply trying to get enough info out of us so they can find the answer on YouTube or download a torrent or something.

I don't mind (and quite often do) helping out new starts on here, but I'm not going to be conned or lied to just to satisfy someone's curiosity. I'm not the sort of person that would be rude to anyone, either in real life or on tinternet, but I might get a little sarky if I think someone's trying to pull the wool over my eyes, and I think it's perfectly justified.

Magikmax, I take your point, but some of the comments some of these people are getting is beyond sarcasm. To my mind, whether you have a real interest or not should not dictate whether you are abused and insulted.

Personally I think Mandrake leads the way when it comes to these requests. He is firm, but polite: "we do not give away secrets, please read the rules and regs". I don't think it would hurt us to adopt the same attitude.

or perhaps a standard

"why dont you try RRTCM, Bobo's or Mark Wilson's"

if they're genuinely interested it should prove to be a shove in the right direction and if they're fishing they won't bother buying books.

Have to agree with Relish, Dat8962 and Mr Dickson.

Yes, Some of the questions being asked are close to the bone and may be for the wrong reasons, but some of the replies are equally unjust!

I believe Mr Dickson, hit the nail on the head with his statement:

Personally I think Mandrake leads the way when it comes to these requests. He is firm, but polite: "we do not give away secrets, please read the rules and regs". I don't think it would hurt us to adopt the same attitude.

agreed. There's no point in being rude to people.

You've got to admit it though, some of the ID comments on the other thread were pretty funny and pretty inventive though (snigger)

Taffy/Gary,

I agree with Mandrakes comment. We all know that people come on here fishing for magic secrets which we know that we are not going to reveal. But should we be rude or sarcastic and say, that trick is done by mind influences involving triple psychic rhumboid manipulation ??

If we are, mostly, working magicians, pro or amateur, we deal with the public and don't insult them while performing, so why not say, sorry, we don't give stuff away here. I know its so tempting to jump in and take the *, but lets be honest, we should be above that, and just say, go away !! Or sorry, we can't tell you. I don't think being rude helps, although it is tempting at times.

Very good point Tenko!

How many working pro's here or else where take the mick or insult their clients when they are always inevitably asked How did you do that?'?

Well if I've offended then shout. The only one I can really look inwardly at (I believe) is this:

http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic26575.php

but I felt it fair comment at the the time.