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Mandrake wrote:All of which proves the point that as individuals we need to be able to be off target, surreal, weird and just plain daft. The far ends of the Creationist vs Non Creationist spectrum both seem to deny this in terms of dictating what we should believe. I reserve the right to be wrong and I reserve the right to be wrong my way as long as it doesn't adversely affect others. So there.

I agree entirely. Its only when such views begin to influence people holding real power I worry.

I worry a lot.

well I've decided I'm going march down that school tomorrow and insist that they take this evolution rubbish off the curriculum and instread teach Dreamtime in science classes. And what's all this rubbish about some bloke called Harvey and blood circulating around the body, blood is made in the head of course and bacteria what's that all about? Everyone knows that illness is caused by an inbalance in the bodys humours.

I think this whole conspiricy to make us believe in a false science that's been going on for the last 300 years is terrible. It's just a way to keep us ignorant so that we can be manipulated.

Do you know what I found the other day? Only a book that was trying to tell me that the Earth was round! How stupid is that? It that was so, we'd all just slide down the side and fall off. How silly do these people think we are? Really!

Whoa, lot of scientists on here.

Looked at seriously, the theory of creation can be explained by both.
The theory of 6 days doesn't make sense. What is a day if the Earth has not been created?
Realistically, the idea is 6 periods of time, the length of which is undetermined but in line with the scientists view, we would say that those are very long.

The Big Bang isn't negated by religious texts either, as far as I know.



Even evolution could be accepted on a religious level, except the inclusion of man. Personally, I don't prescribe to ever having been an ape, but on any level, if you're going to create so many different models, they will share many similarities. Likewise, evolution theory is not perfect either.



Lastly, Atheists these days seem more extremist and fundamentalist than those of religion!

Lastly, Atheists these days seem more extremist and fundamentalist than those of religion!

I think the number of deaths caused by religious fundamentalists disagrees with you.

Lenoir wrote:

Lastly, Atheists these days seem more extremist and fundamentalist than those of religion!

I think the number of deaths caused by religious fundamentalists disagrees with you.

Fundamentalism is about ideas, not actions. The way I see it.

That's terrorism, and of course we've yet to hear of an atheist suicide bomber, but it seems that right now, atheists are forcing their beliefs more than any other believer of any system. And they are also the most (publicly) critical of other beliefs at this moment in time.
On a larger scale, there are always exceptions and odd individuals.

I think they have a right to believe whatever they want, no matter how ridiculous or silly.
But I don't like it when they try and convince normal people that this is the way forward.
I don't tell you you're an idiot and believe in silly things, so you don't tell me.

http://web.mit.edu/gjordan/www/creation/slides/_DSC2310.html


This is rather long but...

I think that most atheists are quite happy letting people have their own religious beliefs. If you think that there's a supreme being who created the planet and everything on it, so what?

It's when they start saying that everything in the Bible is not only true, but literally true, that the speed of light is wrong, that dinosaurs either lived with humans, or didn't exist at all, and their 'bones' are just put there by God to test our faith, that a lot of people lose their cool.

If God is all-powerful, who are they to say that He isn't able to create evolution? It sounds downright disrespectful to Him.

He put fossils around to trick the non-believers? I hope that, if there is a divine being, he'd have better things to do than act like some kind of celestial Jeremy Beadle (RIP).

"What I didn't tell Moses..."

Fundamentalism is about ideas, not actions. The way I see it.

That doesn't take away the thousands that have died because of Fundamentalist views though, surely? No matter what, the 9/11 attacks were caused by Fundamentalist Muslims(Let's not go into conspiracy mode). It may have been a distorted view of the Religion, but it was fundamental views that led them to take their own and thousands of other lives.

Most faiths have a version of 'Love one another' in their creed so IMHO fundamentalism is way out of order, even if it does contain the word 'mentalism'!

The Gospels aren’t the ‘gospel truth’ and the Old Testament was never intended to be taken literally, far too much is allegorical and needs to be put into context. Same applies to the New Testament so when Bible bashers approach waving the Good Book at you claiming to have all the answers, feel free to disagree. There’s a lot in those pages which is worthwhile and relevant but you can’t go round bashing people with it. All rather similar to recommendations here and elsewhere that one particular magic book or DVD is the only one to have and use – there are always additional points of view and other works to read.

And on that note, we shall all sing hymn number 409, omitting verses 3, 6 and 48, whilst I pass amongst you with the collection plate. I can already hear the chink of coins, I’d prefer to hear the rustle of notes.....

As someone who has some rather odd beliefs himself (the spirit world is another dimension, we're descended from aliens, etc) I'm all in favour of people using whatever belief system makes sense to them.

Where I do lose my natural cool is when people start forming "action commitees" to stake out schools and protest against headmasters who don't happen to share their viewpoint. Religious fundamentalists who bombard their local MP's with their viewpoint, and who draft motions for them to present before parliament. Who see the abortion debate as a way "in" to mainstream politics. Who attempt to censor art and creativity that may lay outside of their own personal sensitivities. And who have mastered that sad/coy/joyful look that means "I'm going to spend eternity in Paradise while you're going to burn in Hell."

I'm surrounded by them where I live. One of my neighbours talks to God. Literally. She's a bit of a celebrity. They did a centrefold "splash" about her in the local parish magazine a few months back. She works in the local church run nursery. If my child went to a nursery where one of the assistants talked to God, I'd move my child out pretty quick. But they all love her around here.

My wife and I subscribe to the parish magazine to be amused and outraged in equal measure each month. It's a rollicking read. Our vicar hates gays and women priests and is a literal believer in heaven and hell. He wears whacky yellow shirts with his dog collar.

On the subject of heaven and hell, it's a little known fact that when you die you don't go straight to heaven (or hell). You have to stay dead until judgement day (which could be an eternity away) when you'll rise up from the ground and be judged by God...or Jesus... the jury's out on that one because they're two different people but the same...or something. Anyway, yes, rise up from the ground on judgement day and be told whether to go up to heaven or down to hell. How this affects people who have been cremated and their ashes scattered on the park where they used to like having a picnic is beyond me. Perhaps the particles reform themselves into a kind of dust-man figure.

And no, judgement day does not involve the Terminator. At least not the Arnold Schwarzeneger kind. Sadly.

But I think hell gets a bad rap anyway. And if I'm going to spend eternity there (as I surely am if the Christians are right) then I've got plenty of time to plan my daring escape, right? Then I'll come back and really freak you all out.

The Magic Herring wrote:I think they have a right to believe whatever they want, no matter how ridiculous or silly.
But I don't like it when they try and convince normal people that this is the way forward.
I don't tell you you're an idiot and believe in silly things, so you don't tell me.

I hope that last line doesn't indicate that you felt I was forcing my own ideas on you or telling you what to believe.

Your comments were highly contradictory though. For one who's happy to let other have their beliefs and doesn't call them idiots, they're very patronising things to say to anyone who believes in God and/or higher things than us. - To say these beliefs are ridiculous or silly and to infer that people with beliefs are not normal. That's not respecting peoples right as you claimed you do.


If a person (who's mind isn't corrupted) believes in God and religion, then whatever that religion, it helps to make that person do good things and think twice, because they believe in consequences.
Sure you can point out the evils of the world attributed to religion, but that only stands because it's not possible to gauge the good people have done from believing these things, or the bad that they have refrained from doing.


I'm not taking any particular religious standpoint, you could perhaps just say I'm playing Devil's Advocate (how inappropriate ) because on the whole, there really is no harm in peoples' religious beliefs and its such a shame that there is so much focus on the negativity of a few.

I have a problem with the logic presented by most religious fundamentalists.

The short message they tout is that the only way to avoid going to Hell is to adopt their beliefs and philosophies.

Anyone that disagrees with their interpretation of 'right' and 'wrong' is a sinner and will spend eternity in Hell.

So... the only people going to Heaven are people like them.

This must mean that going to Heaven is to spend eternity with only angry, intolerant bigots for company...

...Which sounds a lot like my idea of Hell!

themagicwand wrote:I think hell gets a bad rap anyway. And if I'm going to spend eternity there (as I surely am if the Christians are right) then I've got plenty of time to plan my daring escape, right? Then I'll come back and really freak you all out.

Relax, Paul, you won't get anywhere near the fire for all the Bishops warming themselves .

pcwells wrote:The short message they tout is that the only way to avoid going to Hell is to adopt their beliefs and philosophies

Anyone who claims their way is the only way should be avoided like the plague.

Incidentally, did y'all know that the concept of Hell, heat, terror, eternal torment etc, was based on the state of the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem? Apparently the authors of the various stories and lessons needed something to illustrate that not conducting yourself in a good way would lead to something very nasty and the worst they could imagine was to be consigned to the rubbish tip with the foul smells, the build up of heat due to rotting vegetation and other 'personal' waste products. The image of Lucifer and the forked tail came from the poor red-faced sweating wretches, understandably bad tempered, forced to work there turning over and levelling the 'stuff' with pitchforks.

Mandrake wrote:
Incidentally, did y'all know that the concept of Hell, heat, terror, eternal torment etc, was based on the state of the rubbish tip outside Jerusalem? Apparently the authors of the various stories and lessons needed something to illustrate that not conducting yourself in a good way would lead to something very nasty and the worst they could imagine was to be consigned to the rubbish tip with the foul smells, the build up of heat due to rotting vegetation and other 'personal' waste products. The image of Lucifer and the forked tail came from the poor red-faced sweating wretches, understandably bad tempered, forced to work there turning over and levelling the 'stuff' with pitchforks.

Very interesting. And wasn't Armagedon a town where a big battle was fought? Or was that Apocalypse? I forget. Anyway, yes, literal interpritations = bad.