talkmagic.co.uk

Only my opinion. I think this thread should be locked as it can only put ideas into people's heads. The people who dont care and are desperate for a copy. I paid good money for mine and so should we all. As Derren would say "The command is there, don't (DO IT )."

If we take the fact that almost every single country in the world has a system of laws that differ from each other (sometimes massively) we have to conclude that just because something is a law it does not make it right. Morality or sensibility and law are two different things.

The recent UK smoking ban makes it illegal to smoke in bars, even though all the polls I've seen suggest the majority of the popuation think that law is absurd.

Bearing in mind the above, I think it's fairly narrow-minded and absolutist for anyone to take the attitude "If it's illegal it's wrong. End of."

In this particular case the circumstances are greatly different to normal illegal file sharing. I think B0bbY_CaT raised a good point and I agree with his sentiments; he's not condoning it, he's asking for a discussion on it and people should have less of a knee-jerk reaction.

As for locking the thread to stop it "putting ideas into people's heads"; isn't that a bit patronising? As though this site is some sort of moral barometer and people don't already know about peer-to-peer software?

Having open and honest discussions on these kinds of topics is actually more likely to stop people doing these sorts of things, because it offers a forum for debate and gives them pause to give it genuine thought instead of just seeing a locked thread and therefore a "forbidden fruit" scenario.

I don't do or condone downloading this stuff (i wouldn't even buy legal downloads, i prefer real stuff) but it begs the question...

What does Derren care? He's no longer getting any money from them, he won't authorise any reissues and the only way people get them is by buying second hand copies.

In the case of sell-ons, only the trader is making any money. He has still owned the book and in most likelihood, read it and learned from it, as will the new owner.

However, its exactly the same for downloads. It's still generally only really interested people who will download it and take the time to read through it, etc.

We know Derren has declared that he won't be writing any more material for magicians, but there's clearly enough demand that they could print some more of his previous books and they'd definitely still sell.

You hold all the keys Mr Brown. Most of us are decent enough folk to pay reasonable sums for the stuff, others will get it the dirty way. Either way people are still going to get his books, the only difference will be what format its in and who's profiting from it.

If i wish to buy something that i either cannot find, nor afford - am i allowed to download it?

Why should magic be any different to a pirated dvd, or some software or other? Maybe everything should be free and we can all just share all that we do. That way, we may all starve together whilst watching our pirated dvds.

That would be absolutely smashing.

Duplicity wrote:Why should magic be any different to a pirated dvd, or some software or other? Maybe everything should be free and we can all just share all that we do. That way, we may all starve together whilst watching our pirated dvds.

That would be absolutely smashing.

I agree that in our consumer driven world we should be able to get ahold of anything and everything - it's only fair and it's my right but I understand the complications with respect to possible reissues/rereleasing, etc.


Why is it not as simple though, as demand = supply ?


If I were selling a product which there was demand for, then I'd damn well ensure supply. I want that money!
Unfortunately it doesn't seem to work that way. There are so many products which don't seem to be produced despite the guarantee that there would be demand for them and they would sell.

I believe it is because we deal in secrets. They say if you want to keep a secret, publish it.

Now, here's the rub - there are many a torrent available, one in particular contains nearly a hundred (or maybe it was a thousand, i really can't remember) pdf files of some very expensive mentalism books.

Using some of the arguments i've read on here; despite some being rather eloquent - i do not feel it would be fair of me to download them.

Maybe i could cheat on my girlfriend and say "well, it was there, it was free. I'm not doing any harm surely?!". No, that's a silly argument - but by God i wish it wasn't. I know one thing - i certainly won't be paying for it.

Duplicity wrote:Maybe everything should be free and we can all just share all that we do. That way, we may all starve together whilst watching our pirated dvds.

That would be absolutely smashing.

You're manufacturing a very exagerated straw-man argument there because nobody in this discussion has even remotely suggested that "everything should be free".

I don't want to put words in B0bbY_CaT's mouth, but the way I understood it he was actually hypothesising a sort of "lesser-of-two-evils" situation; specifically that file sharing of this nature is wrong, but is it more acceptable than having to pay upwards of £200 for a book, or set of books, that while excellent are certainly not worth that price on content alone, taking into consideration that since the books are indefinitely discontinued Derren is not losing potential profits on the downloadable versions anymore than he is on the physical, second-, third- or fourth-hand copies on eBay.

I actually think it's an interesting moral puzzle, but what's even more interesting is the quasi-logical knots people tie themselves in by refusing to see the difference between the above unique scenario and blatant theft that creates loss of earnings and livelihood.

The Daily-Mail-letter-to-the-editor type of argument that usually follows the mis-logic of "If I really, really want a Ferrari but I can't afford one does that mean it's OK to steal one?!" is so totally and immediately flawed in that it is a false analogy. It bears no resemblence to the scenario up for debate. If you steal a Ferrari you are depriving its original owner of it, or the manufacturer of it, and therefore causing significant loss of profit or assets, but the hypothetical situation intruduced by B0bbY_CaT deprives no one of anything. Financially speaking, Derren has washed his hands of the two books in question so the sharing of them does him no financial harm. Arguably it might also do some good, since it spreads valuable knowledge amongst those who may well put it to good use and become better performers for it.

Of course, the morality of it is a different matter and I'm partially on the fence on that one! On the fence but climbing down one side...

Well, you should be careful of the splinters.

queen of clubs wrote:Bearing in mind the above, I think it's fairly narrow-minded and absolutist for anyone to take the attitude "If it's illegal it's wrong. End of."

In this particular case the circumstances are greatly different to normal illegal file sharing. I think B0bbY_CaT raised a good point and I agree with his sentiments; he's not condoning it, he's asking for a discussion on it and people should have less of a knee-jerk reaction.

I agree. It's a very interesting point on a specific issue.

One of the reasons often cited as why you shouldn't acquire illegal copies of magic books and DVDs is that it's depriving the creator of income. In this case, that's not true.

However, there are other good reasons too. One of them is that people have spent their money (whether or not at inflated prices) to buy something that they wanted. It's not fair on them if other people can get the goods for free.

Another is that (usually) when a creator says that there will only be 50, 200, or 1,000 copies of something, it's there to create rarity. It's similar where someone says there won't be any more printings.

In some cases, the rarity is there to benefit the creator. Usually, one can charge more for limited edition effect than for a mass-produced one that will be available pretty much forever. The downside is that it's quite possible that the creator could have made even more money by selling more units, albeit at a lower profit.

Of course, the real reason things are often produced as a limited edition is that magic is about secrets. There's more to it, of course, but almost every magician accepts that the secret has an important role. If people are sure that only 49 other magicians in the world (well, 50 including the creator) know how that peek is done, then it has added value. That value is partly 'magicians' value', if I may call it that. The 'need to know' 'gotta catch 'em all' bug that many of us have.

There's also genuine value in knowing some excellent techniques, or owning rare props.

There may even be financial value to performers in being able to do a very clever bit that very few others have.

I'd say that, if you illegally acquire material, you are undermining the wishes of the creator (which might lead to him, and others, deciding not to release any more items), and harming those who acquired it legitimately. You might not physically deprive the other owners of the item, but it's knowledge (in particular the scarcity of it) that is important in magic.

Part-Timer wrote:Of course, the real reason things are often produced as a limited edition is that magic is about secrets. There's more to it, of course, but almost every magician accepts that the secret has an important role. If people are sure that only 49 other magicians in the world (well, 50 including the creator) know how that peek is done, then it has added value. That value is partly 'magicians' value', if I may call it that. The 'need to know' 'gotta catch 'em all' bug that many of us have.

But there are a few more than that available and they're pretty easy to obtain used.

You made some good points but the major point was that the material is available, just at high prices from second hand sources, whereas the author could be making the money himself.

Creating a rarity may be a long term aim though, as no matter how available, there are only so many copies, and no more. So that could make sense.

Just to throw a spanner of controversy into the works, but www.amazon.com are selling Derren Brown's Pure Effect (still shrink wrapped in fairness) for a hefty £300 GBP...

That's absolute magic!

Rufio wrote:Just to throw a spanner of controversy into the works, but www.amazon.com are selling Derren Brown's Pure Effect (still shrink wrapped in fairness) for a hefty £300 GBP...

That's absolute magic!

Rufio, Isn't that amazing... and THIS is my point. It is the 300 squid price tag that encourages some people to do the WRONG thing. WE need to look past the "holier than thou" reaction and accept this. People do it.

I am NOT saying it is right to do it! However people justify the "highway robbery" price as the reason for their own form of "robbery". I am NOT saying that it's right, only that we can chase all the bloggers and torrent seeders around in circles for ever, and for every one we catch, another 5 will take their place. There is more than one way to stop this type of thing... addressing the demand is something that should be considered. I think it is quite obvious that the DEMAND to acquire these books illegally (at least in this case) is influenced by the price tag.

queen of clubs wrote:I actually think it's an interesting moral puzzle, but what's even more interesting is the quasi-logical knots people tie themselves in by refusing to see the difference between the above unique scenario and blatant theft that creates loss of earnings and livelihood.

The Daily-Mail-letter-to-the-editor type of argument that usually follows the mis-logic of "If I really, really want a Ferrari but I can't afford one does that mean it's OK to steal one?!" is so totally and immediately flawed in that it is a false analogy. It bears no resemblence to the scenario up for debate. If you steal a Ferrari you are depriving its original owner of it, or the manufacturer of it, and therefore causing significant loss of profit or assets, but the hypothetical situation intruduced by B0bbY_CaT deprives no one of anything.

Kate, you make some good points and you seem to understand the purpose of me starting this thread very well. You have also very nicely addressed some of the illogical knee-jerk reactions that prevent some from looking at the actual issue. Thank you for the balance.

mindpaul, I don't think this thread is a "revelation" to anyone that doesn't live on Mars. In fact I hope that any members that may have considered doing this kind of thing are encouraged to reconsider given the overwhelmingly lop sided poll result by TM members. Those new to TM will also be given a crash course in sentiment by this thread.

MagicBell wrote:I don't do or condone downloading this stuff (i wouldn't even buy legal downloads, i prefer real stuff) but it begs the question...

What does Derren care? He's no longer getting any money from them, he won't authorise any reissues and the only way people get them is by buying second hand copies.

You hold all the keys Mr Brown. Most of us are decent enough folk to pay reasonable sums for the stuff, others will get it the dirty way. Either way people are still going to get his books, the only difference will be what format its in and who's profiting from it.

Magicbell, some good points.

Part-Timer wrote:It's a very interesting point on a specific issue.

One of the reasons often cited as why you shouldn't acquire illegal copies of magic books and DVDs is that it's depriving the creator of income. In this case, that's not true.

Makes yah think doesn't it...

Some may say the high price is not only accepted by the author in some cases, it is condoned and encouraged. I'm sure the sales of "Tricks of the Mind" increased as a result of the rapid increase in the price of Pure Effect and Absolute Magic.

Therefore, and now that the "initial outrage" I would start such a discussion seems to have settled, perhaps we can also consider this... If an Author uses the "limited availability and excessive price" of one book as a marketing tool to drive up sales of another book, they must understand the inflated prices will make some people think about doing the wrong thing. FACT. Again, for those with a reading disorder, I am NOT saying it is right people would do this, I am just observing the fact they do...

Can you have it both ways? can you contribute to the inflated price, use the inflated price as a marketing tool to ramp up sales of your new book, then complain about people objecting to pay the high price for your original book and so look for alternative ways to obtain it?
***this is a question NOT a statement***

Rufio wrote:Just to throw a spanner of controversy into the works, but www.amazon.com are selling Derren Brown's Pure Effect (still shrink wrapped in fairness) for a hefty £300 GBP...

That's absolute magic!

To be fair it's not the Amazon corporation itself that's selling it - there are two or three copies available through registered Amazon Marketplace Sellers, which is Amazon's equivalent of the eBay "Buy-It-Now" feature. If Amazon were selling the book then that would mean Derren was still receiving royalties, and that would put this entire discussion in a new light.

Just out of curiosity does anyone know how many copies were originally produced over the editions?

Fairie x

I kinda didn't read it and voted for No. Don't shop me in to the feds Mandrake!