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Just wondering Nick if you think a magician that you wanted to learn from would be better coming around your house and showing you or writing it down for you?

Oh and by the way if you've ever used anything like AIM have you noticed that it's easy to have misunderstandings?

hear hear

I am sure I'm not alone in finding the written word on a page hard work visualy (though on a pc I'm fine) and there are some I know that just can't get their head around the mirror effect you get with a dvd and stand there with their back to the tv stretching round to see, horses for courses, whatever floats your boat and other silly proverbs

I agree with you to a degree. Most of what I've learnt has been from books.
But - I have discovered that I've learned far quicker when i watch someone do something. I'm not talking about full presentation, patter etc. - but there are some subtelties that i find I miss by just reading a book. I've read the method of the shuttle pass over and over - and yet when someone showed it to me I realised I had the rythm all wrong. The same goes for a number of sleights, the finer aspects of misdirection, rythm etc
There are a number of things I've read in books and just passed over them thinking "that won't work" - until i saw them performed. A lot of the stuff that I use in my kid's show, I use because I saw someone perform it. Some times I even use what the person said (adapted to my own style) - because it works and makes the kids laugh.

I'm not saying dvd's should replace books - but together with books they seem like a great idea. IMO - used correctly, they're a great tool and they shouldn't be labelled bad cos people misuse them

Of course on a one to one basis it would be stupid to ask him to write it down, but in that situation you can ask any questions you have to clarify a move or position. What we are talking about is a fixed tutorial, there is no way to modify what is shown and what is not. If you are able to read and your brain is good at translating the written word into a physical picture (which not everyone is, so I certainly don't mean to imply that you are thick if you can't) then a book is equally as good as a video. On the other hand a video is better able to give an idea of what a move should look like than a book by using multiple camera angles.

As I have said before though, this is entireley a matter of personal preference, you are not wrong, I am not wrong, we just have different opinions.

Nick

OK fair enough, it's just that your opinion Sucks

Nah I'm kidding of course and I'm not doubting the usefulness of books, nor that for some people they might learn better from a book, though I would have thought a minority.

Going back to my analogy Nick, what if the magician coming around your house was going to show you but not allow questions, would you go for him writing it down instead?

The original question posed was:

How influential are these videos or DVDs on someone's performance?

and we seem to be straying off the path into the land of Hypotheticals a bit in terms of written versus electronically recorded knowledge. Both formats will obviously have advantages and disadvantages but, if we could get back to the original question and bear in mind the sensitivities of the various members, it would be much appreciated.

BaBaBoom wrote:hear hear

I am sure I'm not alone in finding the written word on a page hard work visualy (though on a pc I'm fine)

I actualy have the other problem - I can't concentrate when I'm sitting infront of a computer, I have several books in E-book format, but nothing seems to stay in my head when I read from the screen - tried for weeks to remember "Tipsy Trick" from my RRTCM e-book. Bought it in hard copy & remembered it all in one sitting. So as you said Horses for Courses.

& Here is another advantage Books have over DVDs - Portability, unless you can afford to fork out a couple of thousand quid for a portable DVD player your kinda limitied to only learning @ home, whereas with a book you could learn anywhere

I do think there is one major advantage over seeing a trick performed to to reading it in a book.

You read the effect that sounds absolutely fantastic then read the explanation and you think I would never get away with that. For instance I recently purchased Drawing Room Deceptions by Guy Hollingworth. There is a card effect called the Cassandry Quandry. Part of the routine requires the performer to switch an envelope which contains a selection with a an empty envelope which the spectator then signs. Doesn't sound too bad until you realise that the envelope(s) never leave the spectator's sight. The description reads simply enough but you think they would surely see.

So I then splashed out on the video just so I could see how the move worked (loadsamoney!!). Hey presto it all made sense. Still going to require some front to get away with it but at least I have now seen it in action.

That's a good point and it is often to do with he confidence thing. If you read something it can seem impossible that it won't be noticed. The more you read, however, the more you get used to the fact that most published effects have been tried out and well audince tested but there is still a small worry that ena effect that is only an idea may be included.

On the whole you can get away with pretty much anything with the right misdirection and confidence though.

Midas I agree, I don't think it often works the other way, ie "saw a trick on DVD and couldn't get to grips with it, then I read it in a book and suddenly it was all clear."

As to the original question, seeing the performance by a top magician whether live or by DVD can't fail but to teach the observant student.

Side note:

That is the prob with the Cassandra Quandry there is no misdirection you do it as point to the envelope. So the spectator is looking right at it. Unreal

Sounds an interesting trick, I've been thinking of getting the Drawing Room Deceptions book after reading Derren Brown's comments on it (I think in Pure Effect).

Going off the topic slightly. All I can say is, not for the faint hearted. Extremely well written and illustrated. It certainly one of those books to have in your collection for the cor blimey factor.

I mean "Reformation" takes something like 30 pages to explain for ****** sake. It is performed (not explained) on the video but it doesn't help even if you know the effect.

Cool eh managed to bring it right back on topic

Ahem, back to the original question, I can't honestly say I pick up much in presentation form videos and DVDs.

Sometimes a routine has a story that you need to follow, or the trick won't make sense.

Sometimes certain words used in the trick are important for misdirection or for psychological reasons.

In those cases, yes, I will pick up presentations from what I have seen.

However, in quite a few cases, I find myself thinking that the performer I am seeing has less personality than I do, so I'd be mad to ape him.

Obviously, there are many magicians who have loads of personality (many have been mentioned already, so I won't labour the point), but even then, I wouldn't copy them, because I don't want to be Jay Sankey and, even if I did, I couldn't be and shouldn't be. He is Jay Sankey and he's very good at it.

I think the danger is if you haven't really got a performing personality, so you pick up bits from each DVD. When you do card tricks, you are like Daryl, when you do cups and balls you are like Michael Ammar, etc. You then end up with a mish-mash.

However, that's life. If you do a preforming art, there is a good chance that you will never be great at it, no matter how much you practise.

Some people are tone deaf and couldn't learn an instrument. Others can't portray emotions, so they will never be actors. Some people haven't got what it takes to be magicians.

Part of that is acting ability, part is intelligence, part is dedication, part is people skills, part is dexterity, part is confidence and I am sure other elements come into play. You might not need all of these, but you need many. In my opinion, one of these elements is personality.

You cannot learn that from a DVD. If you haven't got the right personality, then maybe magic isn't for you, just as I would never have made a ballet dancer.

Sorry, I think I have gone off-topic now!