talkmagic.co.uk

God help me am I going to get some stick for this
Right when ever anyone asks where to start in mentalism we always tell them practical mental magic and 13 steps, now I'm going to put my hands up here, I've never read 13 Steps. I read PMM and then went straight on to Cassidy. I know the 2 books are corner stones of our art and that they help but are they out dated? Do you need to read those books to get on in mentalism? I know a working pro who has material out there that a lot of you will own and they have never read 13 Steps. They told me this themselves, I've never read it and yet I get bookings.

So I put it to you all should we be suggesting other books first.
Craig I'm waiting for your reply

Right don't vote yet there should have been a forth choice of No to both but it's not there? Will try and fix it

I don't think either of them are out-dated. Some of the effects might be, but the principles behind them can be used in a variety of ways. That's the beauty of the books. They are not just books full of tricks; the effects are just the tip of the iceberg. The ideas and principles in these books are probably what got your average professional mentalist paid work in the first place. Where do you think the origins of many modern mentalism effects come from? Men like Corinda and Annemann, amongst others. I voted for both books. They may not be the only mentalism books you should own, but they should definitely be in your collection. My opinion, of course.

(By the way, this is assuming you have more than a passing interest in mentalism. If you're purely a card worker, for example, then it's probably no to both).

No, you don't need to read them to start in mentalism, you don't need to read anything to start really, you could do an entire routine based on shop bought effects. And there's no rule that says you can't be a working professional without having read 13 steps or practical mental magic.

That said, don't you want to read them? They are two of the greatest works on mentalism ever produced in terms of content and thinking and yes, they're both getting on a bit, but so is the cups and balls and people are still trotting that out a couple of thousand years on. I love reading books about magic, part of my love for the "art form" is the discovery of new methods and new ideas.

If you're an action movie fan, you don't NEED to see Die Hard. That doesn't stop it being the greatest action movie ever made (which it clearly is).

Why in the hell are you asking such an ignorant question Trist?

Are you just trying to get my dander up? You're poking the bear and you know better.


The books in question are FOUNDATION material and even though they seem "dated" the material if vital to know. I've seen numerous "new" bits on the market in the past year alone based on what you find in those two books but yet, we have a myriad of people that own those books that don't recognize what's being sold and thus, they pay $40+ on something they already have. If that's not stupidity I don't know what is.

I have students that have taken routines straight out of Corinda, performed them at their magic club meetings and blown everyone out of the water who would then argue that "it's not in Corinda, I read that book..." etc. But that's the problem... they "read" through the book but didn't STUDY it. That is why in my essay about becoming a Mentalist I suggest people study and work with Corinda in the manner it was originally released; taking each step as a one-three month course of focus, practicing/experimenting and getting to actually know that material by getting intimate with it. This is how you become adept at anything you seek to study in life, the speed reading and cursory looks only give you superficial perspective which is not sufficient if you're to excel.

UNDERSTAND, this are "Foundation" tools, not the gospel as much as Mentalism 101... a starting point! From what you find in these books alone, you can build a career (many have) but you do need to augment some of what you find, not only bringing techniques, etc. up-to-date but to better round out those areas that interest you most and attract you as an area of personal focus...you specialty as it were. The other side of this "next step" is simple to expand on other key foundation skills i.e.

Memory Skills
Billet Skills
Cold/People Reading Skills
Muscle Reading/Ideomotor Skills
Psychological/Linguistic Skills

From this point the sky really does become your limit and the rest of your study efforts center on those things you wish to use as tools to better define the who & what you are as a performer. That is where a lot of the Bob Cassidy material comes into play as well as a good chunk of the John Riggs and Banachek philosophies come into play.

You will notice that I'm leaving out PK type bits that some tie to Mentalism. The reason is quite simple, TOO MANY MAGICIANS ARE DOING IT e.g. it becomes more difficult to "sell" as a psychic styled performer in that it has become little more than a parlor trick in the minds of laymen that have seen it before... kind of like the Linking Rings or a Zombie routine. I'm not saying that you can't use it, only that it has been made a bit more difficult to "fit" into the idea of actual paranormal phenomena. Some folks have a knack in knowing how to get around this but even I have cut back (nearly cut out) this kind of presentation because it's been so overdone... but then that's a lesson we can all learn from Copperfield... if it's of current vogue, stay away from it!

Don't get me wrong I'd love to read 13 steps, I've got 1 of original steps at home must pick up the others next time I'm at the shop. Just wondered if there isn't something else people should start with. Wanted to see peoples thoughts more than anything else, yes alot of our effect today cre based on the ones in the books I know that, including my own handling of the 3 envelope test (I'll let you know when it's out) just like to see some health discussions on things. See I'm a big CassIdy fan and have learned alot from his work.

Thanks Craig, I'm not poking the bear just seeing what peoples views are, I like a good stir every now and then

Reverend Tristan wrote:I know a working pro who has material out there that a lot of you will own and they have never read 13 Steps. They told me this themselves, I've never read it and yet I get bookings.

Bob Cassidy? He certainly doesn't think it's an essential book. Corinda didn't read it, Fogel didn't read it, Annemann didn't read it...

I have to say that, while it might be possible to pick up effective techniques for the different Steps elsewhere, if you're starting out, it really is the best foundation.

There is no need to read '13 Steps', but it's an awfully good place to begin.

Part-Timer wrote:Bob Cassidyy? He certainly doesn't think it's an essential book. Corinda didn't read it, Fogel didn't read it, Annemann didn't read it...

Yes and just look how well they all did lol, I see I've stood on a few toes here so my work is done, please look out for my next post, the swa*i is it still needed

It's a matter of time saving.

There are three ways to start any new venture:

1. Scratch around an almost infinite number of information sources to gather the information you need.

2. Start from scratch, with no instruction or influence, and spend an age reinventing wheels that already exist.

3. Seek out a single that will give you a solid grounding that can you can build on as your own passions and styles mature.

Options one and two represent a lot of work and unnecessary effort.

Option three is by far the path of least resistance (and least cost).

There's a lot in both books that I dislike, but much more that I find good use for. It's also interesting that, despite my compulsive habit of seeking out as many cunning new mentalism devices as I can, I still end up coming back to Corinda and Anneman when putting new material together.

Bob Cassidy? He certainly doesn't think it's an essential book. Corinda didn't read it, Fogel didn't read it, Annemann didn't read it...

That's so funny to read... in that Cassidy was already performing just as the original study guides went to press (I believe), Fogel & Annemann both contributed to 13 steps and then too, neither Tony of Theo had such resources and had to be both, creative as well as resourceful.

If Annemann and Corinda didn't exist... (aside from the fact we'd not have a heck of a lot of the resources and perspectives we have today) I'd have to point newbies to one specific author (for starters) and that would be Cassidy; his philosophy of The Web, the Principia and Element texts all being priceless when it comes to foundation and perspective... not so much when it comes to "technique" but from a theosophical point of view, things of great value. Couple that with Theories & Methods, and Fundamentals and I'd say you would pretty much set as far as career building. I would augment that course of study with two other authors however...

John Riggs and his myriad of dissertations on the Q&A
Richard Webster and most EVERYTHING he's ever released when it comes to Reading Techniques and the Business Side of Psychic Entertainment

The icing on the cake would be Elliot's SWITCHCRAFT (gotta have those billets), Paul Brook's ALCHEMICAL TOOLS, and Banachek's PSI Series DVD collection, Psychological Subtleties I & II, and Psychophysiological Thought Reading.

Though I can think of a few more resources that could be tossed in, I believe this collection is more than sufficient when it comes to those new to Mentalism and in their first two to three years of study/practice.

Tristan - get 13 Steps mate. Honestly.

I think I've come over as a newbi here haven't I? Paul I will get 13 Steps at some point, just too many other books I want to get me hands on, I love my PMM and go over it ever so often, but then I go over my other books alot some of which Craig mentioned above. So the thought is that we do need 13 Steps. Just wanted to see what everyone else thought? It was after some thought about my own experience some pros Thoughts and some other things. Do I feel stupid for asking this question? No I don't, it's nice to see so many true mentalist here, I'll just shut up now until my next post about magic and mentalist clubs goodnight

Reverend Tristan wrote:just too many other books I want to get me hands on

I know you've already got the message, but if you buy the '13 Steps' you won't need to buy some of those other books.

Reverend Tristan wrote:I think I've come over as a newbi here haven't I? Paul I will get 13 Steps at some point, just too many other books I want to get me hands on, I love my PMM and go over it ever so often, but then I go over my other books alot some of which Craig mentioned above. So the thought is that we do need 13 Steps. Just wanted to see what everyone else thought? It was after some thought about my own experience some pros Thoughts and some other things. Do I feel stupid for asking this question? No I don't, it's nice to see so many true mentalist here, I'll just shut up now until my next post about magic and mentalist clubs goodnight

For a forum that is quite full of traditional Magicians I would have to say that TM has one of the best rounded and some of the most learned Mentalists I've ever found on any non-mentalism (exclusive) site, bar none! More importantly, there is a maturity with this group that more or less allows room for those that hold to the older way of looking at and doing the work as well as the newer more "trendy" modes that have come around in the past few years.

We all owe a great deal of this to the management team here but likewise the fact that so many of us, especially those of us that have been here for a good while, strive to keep an eye on things and try to keep some semblance of "balance" and "peace". These are things that are quite unique to this particular forum and ones that should never be taken for granted by any of us.

Personally I think Mandrake and Bananafish along with the others that have lent a hand here and there, deserve a very big round of applause.