talkmagic.co.uk

Hi,

I'm back with more inane questioning for you. Those pesky noobs eh?!

With a number of shiny new tricks in ziplock bags on my bookshelf, I'm not stuck for choice. But, I've become very good at deciding they aren't good enough to bother with. Stupid really, but it's taken me a while to work out why.

I opened 4 of the effects today which had been opened, looked at and put back without further thought. I re-read the text of each, thought "nah, this is rubbish. Nobody would be fooled" and put them back. Then I sat thinking and came to the conclusion that I'm being an idiot.

The only reason I dismissed them is because I know how very simple they are to learn and probably perform (not well, but ok for an amateur). What I didn't think about was how these would look to someone with absolutely no clue as to the method behind the effect. The more I considered, the more I realised that I needed to change my thought process as the tricks are probably very strong when done properly!

Of course, the only way to prove how good or bad they are is by repeated performance in front of others and their reaction. Even then, a bad reaction would point more to my poor performance than a badly designed effect.

Do any of you experienced magicians go through this or is it just me? Once you buy the "secret", does it lessen that minor miracle you've seen performed by other people?

Cheers,
Wishmaster

I have to say that no, this doesn't happen with me. On the rare occasions when I buy tricks, I do so on the basis of the effect. Therefore, the method doesn't really matter.

However, I do suffer from a related problem. If I can figure out how a trick is done, using knowledge that I might have as a lay person, then I get very twitchy about it. The clearest example I can think of is some of the mathematical tricks.

Also, there was a Patrik Kuffs trick using a Rubik's Cube that allegedly fooled Gary Kurtz. Well, it wouldn't have fooled me, even if I'd never done magic. It's a nice trick, and there is another element to it that makes the method harder to spot, but I couldn't get past the fact that maybe 1 in 10 people (pure guess) would spot the "obvious".

our job is to share the magic with people...though its fun to find out how things work - magic and mentalism is pretty much pointless without "others" to share it with...

if you've not learnt it - Paul Curry's Out of This World...thats pretty much as simple as can be...however!

its been performed on tv in different guises, baffles and amazes everyone, and is one of the most adaptable bits of card mechanics ever....

i find the wonder and amazement is, after learning the process and the secret - is when you look at people after you've shared it with them - and they are goggle eyed, slack jawed and amazed...and you've given them a few minutes of entertainment, put a smile on their face and quite possibly been the best thing in their life at that moment...

dont over think these things too much, just enjoy the secret, and then go out and share the magic part...

I think part of this is my fear of failing.

The few things I've done in front of others have so far managed to get amazing reactions, but I do lack confidence in a big way. It's not the trick at fault, but myself. I convince myself NOT to do something because to me it looks so easy, I lose sight of the fact that nobody else I'm performing it for has any idea and will be amazed.

I know I need to get past this and wanted to bounce it off the experts.

next time you buy an effect...

read the blurb first, read it out loud to a member of your family...

ask them if that sounds amazing...if so, just remember that bit - then go read the secret...the secret doesnt matter...

That's a nice idea, Iain.

The truth is, a lot of tricks have very little going on, once you analyse them. It's "just" a couple of funny moves with the cards or coins, or a trick deck, or a gimmicked pen. The method is, in some ways, the least important part of the trick.

I think you need to do a few bits for friends and family (don't choose someone who'll feel the need to undermine you). Once you see the reactions, you'll understand that there's no correlation between the simplicity (or otherwise) of the trick and how entertaining it is.

Of course, the trick itself is never entertaining, but I think you've already nailed that!

May I ask, is the real issue that you don't think you can do these tricks well enough to entertain? That somehow they need difficult methods to make up for your perceived lack of presentational skill. I'm not saying that's the case, just wondering if that might underlie the problem.

I totally agree with Iain and some of the best effects are often the simplest. Out of this world is a classic example and is one of the most impossible card tricks for a lay person.

Another example is the cups and balls. The look of amazement on the lay-persons face when the final loads appear from under the cup is priceless.

You will only realise the real value of a magic trick after you've performed it for real on lay people.

I have the opposite problem! Although it has only afflicted me once.
Amazing effect - signed card changes visibly quarter by quarter into another card. Watched the video - wow, amazing! Went out and bought the DVD - so complicated to perform that it has sat on my shelf ever since. It seriously would have taken me around 30-60 mins to prepare it for one gig. Wasted money.

I can see the point, i've been there when I was starting out that the secret is too simple and wouldn't fool anyone. Now I love the simple stuff, it is in the performance, it will come with time and practice. Out of this world is a trick and will blow anyone away, I love the 3 envelope test which is very basic and simple but i've fooled people time and time again with it as there is on explanation but it's mind reading. Take the ones you've got and try them out on real people. You will be surprised

Part-Timer wrote:May I ask, is the real issue that you don't think you can do these tricks well enough to entertain? That somehow they need difficult methods to make up for your perceived lack of presentational skill. I'm not saying that's the case, just wondering if that might underlie the problem.

You are absolutely spot on Part-Timer.

It's dawning on me through this thread and after sitting thinking about it that it's really not important to have flashy set ups, gimmics or anything else to be successful and entertaining and that a normal deck of cards is enough for a complete performance. The simplest things can get the strongest reaction, but only if performed and delivered in an entertaining way.

Thank you all for the feedback, this has been really encouraging for me. Very much appreciated.

Hi Wishmaster. I think the problem is that you are starting from the wrong place. It reminds me of the joke about the man who stops a farmer in the middle of nowhere, and asks him how to get into town.
"Well, I wouldn't start from here," said the farmer.
Packet tricks are the wrong way to get into magic. I try to look at magic with the eyes of a layman, and packet tricks scream trick cards to me. They beg the obvious question - why aren't you doing that with a few cards plucked from an ordinary deck?
You would be better off getting The Royal Road To Card Magic and working your way through it. You will make rapid progress, because it is such a well-laid out instruction course. Very quickly you will be able to do stuff with an ordinary deck that will kill with a lay audience. The book will cost you no more than one of your packet tricks, but will give you so much more.
And when you have some skills, you will feel far more confident performing your magic.
If we are completely honest the vast majority of packet tricks are marketed purely to allow dealers make money from hobbyiests and from those starting out. Don't fall into the trap.

That's why I like to see the trick first before learning the secret. If the trick astounded me I couldn't give a flying fungus what the secret is. In fact, the simpler the better, since I won't then mess it up :p

TonyB - I have Royal Road and am spending a lot of time with it at the moment. It's a brilliant book, but I'm finding being left handed a bit difficult when working with it. It's easy to think, I'll just replace "right" with "left" when reading and working through examples, but in practice it's extremely hard to do. I find it hard anyway. It's a bit of a slog to read a paragraph, translate to left handed and try to do it all at once, no matter how slowly I go.

E.g. The Run on p18 - I can't make sense of the description whilst trying to do what it says with the opposite hands.

I've had trouble dealing with people's reactions to OOTW because I've felt they must be taking the p___. But they're not, it's just that's the level that knowing the secret of it undermines the effect to such an extent that I forget what the normal reaction ought to be, which is dumbfounded amazement.

I find effects that rely on a solid bit of misdirection can be fairly offputting. You have to trust that the misdirection is strong enough to get away with it, and no amount of practice in front of a mirror will prepare you for the moment. At the risk of harping on about OOTW, I use Derren Brown's handling which seems wonderfully clean but relies wholly on a move performed during an offbeat. I'm still amazed that I get away with it, and know that if I'd seen it in black and white would have blanched and never attempted it at all.

I remember seeing this thing on Ellusionist (I know, I know) - change the way you think about coin magic! Whatever you think it is, this isn't it! No pulls, strings, wires, magnets, best coin vanish ever! It was $20 and from the first demonstration it was clear to anybody with one good eye that this guy was just sliding it into his pocket. Twenty dollars to learn how to slide a coin into your pocket off the back of your hand at waist level. That isn't magic, as far as I'm concerned - if my drunk uncle could do it after Christmas dinner then I'll pass, thanks.

I think I'm better at spotting naff effects than I used to be. Part-Timer hit the nail on the head; any trick that relies on a really obvious mathematical principle are out.