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Another thing that irks me is that most of the poeple that take offence to things are, in reality, reacting to the possibility that it may offend somebody else.

Call me naive, but surely those somebody elses are big enough to stand up and speak up if they genuinely feel offended?

For some odd reason I thought that listening was just as important a part of communication as shouting, screaming and yelling.

Or am I being too simplistic?

Pete

Farlsborough wrote:The reason you (as a white person) are not allowed to tell those jokes is because of the history of our respective ancestors. If your grandad had murdered someone elses grandad, would you be telling that guy jokes about killing people? No - it's not about you being personally to blame, it's about showing that you acknowledge the errors of the past, and your desire to distance yourself from them. If that other guy then decides to lighten the mood by telling a joke about killing people, that's his decision and it's OK. Easy.

I agree with you here. My point was slightly different though.

I was talking about comedians making racist jokes, whether black or white. We have white comedians being potentially offensive to anyone and everyone and being called for it, as I said banned from TV and other venues. Yet, a black comedian tells essentially the same racist jokes and not only are they deemed entertaining and shown on TV, they are not seen as racist. It seems like hypocrisy and double standards to me and nothing to do with historical references. That's what I find offensive.

But to me it's all about context and perspective.

Lenny Henry has never struck me as being the most socially or politically outspoken stand-ups out there. But when he did cover issues of race, it tended to be told from his perspective of growing up in a pedominantly white community. I think the observations are valid. And if he can spin them for laughs, fair enough.

Oh, and there's also the painfully unfunny characters he wheeled out, but let's not go there...

It's not about causing effence and getting away with it. Reginald D Hunter has made some very cutting remarks about PC paranoia in his time. They were eloquent and funny - but I don't think a white commentator would have been quite as effective on those issues.

Just an observation.

Pete

The solution: the new Morris men costume.



and the all-audiences US variation.

pcwells wrote:But to me it's all about context and perspective.

Very true.

A case in point regarding being offended on behalf of someone else, Lou and Andy were lambasted by people believing Andy offended handicapped people, when actually a lot of handicapped people, kids especially, championed him.

And yes, there's a difference between making observational jokes from within an ethnic community and making observational jokes from without; often it just comes down to the breadth of the stereotype. I won't say that it's impossible for a white person to make jokes about the Afro-Carribean community, say, but you have to live it before you can pull it off, and it will probably only come off as inoffensive if it's clearly from your own perspective.

Mr_Grue wrote:A case in point regarding being offended on behalf of someone else, Lou and Andy were lambasted by people believing Andy offended handicapped people, when actually a lot of handicapped people, kids especially, championed him.

Little Britain was fascinating in that respect. I think the reason it got away with its characters and gags is that it was written with absolutely no thought about the possible interpretation. Everything rested on being outrageous, and you can't chase shock value while walking on eggshells.

I think the line was drawn in the fact that they created identifiable characters that people knew by name and weren't being malicious about any generalised 'types' of people.

I just found it sad that so many edisodes of Little Britain were almost identical to each other...

Farlsy is right. It boils down to understanding the difference between, for instance, me looking at myself in a mirror and declaring "I look fat today" and someone coming up to me in the street and saying "You look fat today". Both statements can be argued to be coming to the same conclusion, but it is pretty obvious which one is going to cause more offence and upset.

queen of clubs wrote:Farlsy is right. It boils down to understanding the difference between, for instance, me looking at myself in a mirror and declaring "I look fat today" and someone coming up to me in the street and saying "You look fat today". Both statements can be argued to be coming to the same conclusion, but it is pretty obvious which one is going to cause more offence and upset.

But, let's suppose you are fat. Would you be more offended by another fat person "You look fat today" or a thin person saying it? Context again. Or, a fat or thin friend saying the same, knowing it's an ongoing joke between you and that no malice is intended on either side?

Plus, why should Lenny Henry or someone like him make jokes about something that is historically as Farlsborough said a big issue (and quite rightly), but not someone white? You can't give one person permission to demean or disrespect the subject just because they happen to be a certain colour. Isn't that being racist too?

I honestly don't think there's a straight (I was going to say black or white! ) answer to this debate.

There's a big, big difference between taking the mickey out of someone, and just slating them because of how they look...putting people in certain situations, set ups or similar can be funny...

however, a simple rule of thumb of whether something is racist is this...

"would you feel comfortable saying it infront of a person of that particular skin tone"

if the answer is yes, then please do so...
if the answer is no, then it may be that you're on dodgy ground...

as an aside, if you can tell me a joke about someone that's a different skin tone to me (honky cracker) that is genuinely funny but involves their skin tone in some respect yet ISNT racist, then please post it up...(no MJ jokes, they've all been done)...

the only one i can think of is - whats got 3 eyes and tap dances? sammy davis jnr and bruce forsythe... you had to be there!

ah, but see what i did there? i mentioned a disability...yet, within a context of not mocking the departed and talented Sammy Davis Jnr...

though, if you're telling me that the humour that touches upon race like Richard Pryor would tell, and the s**t that Bernard Manning would tell are the same - then frankly...you're an idiot...

there's also the use of irony and heavy sarcasm when talking about race that you have to be very careful with, but can be done very well with a knowing wink...that you are in fact lampooning a stereotype or poking fun at the ignorant racist types...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzezmPaZoaI

IAIN wrote:there's also the use of irony and heavy sarcasm when talking about race that you have to be very careful with, but can be done very well with a knowing wink...that you are in fact lampooning a stereotype or poking fun at the ignorant racist types...

A good case in point, I think, was Alf Garnett - the character created by Johnny Speight for the British sitcom Till Death Us Do Part.

Alf was written as an attack on ignorance and bigotry in Britain. Warren Mitchell, who played the character was himself the antithesis of Alf Garnett and played the part with gusto as an opportunity to send up the worst of the British stereotype.

The problem was that Alf Garnett was too accurate an observation to be seen as a caricature. Most people got the point of the character and the programme. But a lot of people took it at face value - regardless of the fact that Alf was the singular unsympathetic character, and all the supporting characters were seen as more likeable and intelligent than the 'star'. In fact, a lot of Britain's bigots were so thick, that they watched the show religiously, thinking it was made to entertain them rather than ridicule them...

yeah - he used to have people come up to him and say "yeah good on ya mate...i agree with what you said..."

and then he'd explode in rage at them! i love warren's real speaking voice by the way, that rusty old london yiddish accent...warms me cockels!

back to the morris dancers, let 'em colour their face in whatever colour they wish - its NOT about race in this instance...

but i have noticed a sudden influx of people that have that strange orange skin, that i dont approve of...they usually wear track suit bottoms, false nails and spit in the streets...don't know where they get that strange glowing orange shade from, but i really dont approve of them...

up next, disability and disease!

What a load of codswallop. The world has gone stark, raving bonkers. I couldn't care less about this PC malarkey; people need to grow some balls and get on with it. For example, Iain has quite blatantly called me a chunky chinky on several occasions, but do I go crying to mummy? No. (He happens to be correct, by the way). SugarPuff has called me the same thing, but only because she is playing hard to get, the minx. I am not in the least bit bovvered.







(I know where you live, Dunford).

actually, i have never mentioned your chinkiness...i actually thought you had jaundice...

see? jokes between friends is understood, but doing stand up is completely different...

and its only cos i let him touch my moobs that i get to say such things...

If you let me touch something else, you can say any damn thing you want. Me love you long time.