talkmagic.co.uk

Craig Browning wrote:I've seen at least 3 pm's today asking where the mods were and why they haven't blocked you IP yet.

If I broke the rules I am sure they would.

xx

A point that seems to have been missed here, though, is that Trent Reznor and all the other examples that Mr Goat mentions chose to make material available free online. John Riggs didn't. And I don't think he should have that choice made for him by people who obviously don't respect him or his work enough to support him in earning a living.

Yes, I fully agree with the assertion that obscurity is more harmful than piracy, but if John wanted star status of the David Blaine/Criss Angel order, he wouldn't chase it with instructional material. He'd fry people's brains with perfromance-only videos and let the talk and hype build.

But, as I said, this is a very different game to the online sharing of mainstream entertainment media. For a start, this is instructional stuff. Nobody will bother buying a genuine copy to enjoy the benefits of better picture quality, improved sound or a nice Amaray case. And having established that a performer's work can be had for free via torrent sites only serves to devalue any future work in their mind.

As an example, I ran a small punk rock DVD label. DVDs were well shot, and very well received. The ones pitched to middle-aged fans, who were in the habit of seeking out and buying music sold well. The ones geared towards 'the kids' got loads of attention, but very few sales. They were copied and shared instead. I hung around on punk messageboards to gague the feedback on the releases, and even though people loved the concert videos I put out, almost every comment I saw amounted to: I'd buy it if I could, but I'm too poor. So I downloaded it instead. It rocks. Oh, and I just bought a new pair of 'Bouncing Souls' Vans. Okay, they cost me a hundred bucks, but they're kewl..

What I learned from that is that these bands with teenage audiences make money from having their names on a pair of shoes, and from concert ticket sales and shirts sold at shows, but not on their music.

The ability to rip, copy, torrent and share music and video didn't help me in the slightest.

So yes, I understand the arguments, and I'm sure you're right that online sharing has its advantages. But as one of those independent publishers that should have benefitted from the digital revolution, I can assure you that file sharing did me all sorts of harm and no good that I'm aware of.

Pete

no pcwells, you're wrong - because mr. goat says so...

the only way torrent sites would work to a mentalist's advantage is if you release the ebook version, but with no "how to's"...

get it torrented or whatever the verb is; then release a hard copy of the book, with you controlling the distribution a couple of months down the line...or have the content/reveals stored online - and the people get individual passwords, and also each time the content would be generated slightly differently...so you would know who had what version....

pcwells wrote:A point that seems to have been missed here, though, is that Trent Reznor and all the other examples that Mr Goat mentions chose to make material available free online. John Riggs didn't. And I don't think he should have that choice made for him

No one suggested he should as far as I can tell.

pcwells wrote:The ability to rip, copy, torrent and share music and video didn't help me in the slightest.

So yes, I understand the arguments, and I'm sure you're right that online sharing has its advantages. But as one of those independent publishers that should have benefitted from the digital revolution, I can assure you that file sharing did me all sorts of harm and no good that I'm aware of.

So, what did you do to embrace file sharing and offer upsells that were non-downloadable?

Did you offer blu-ray discs with the Logic tracks unmixed and release it under creative commons? Did you offer limited edition artwork by the bands? Did you do *anything* different?

Seems like you put out some music and were a bit miffed it got pirated.

I don't think you can say embracing and working with the notion of filesharing failed for you, because (it seems) you didn't do anything to work with it at all...Or to offer fans a reason to buy and not steal the work (like the limited editions and upsells).

Andfinally, it's not *me* saying it's right to market your stuff via file sharing. I am quoting authors and artists that are saying that. I am posting links to them discussing why they do, to try and show another side of the argument.

Well, these were the days before Blu-Ray.

My releases had surround sound and often came with band interviews and sometimes video diary footage shot on the road.

It's not like I just put out the gig...

I haven't done any academic studies on the world of file sharing and suchlike. I only have my own experience on the matter.

IAIN wrote:no pcwells, you're wrong - because mr. goat says so...

Hahaha! That's genius and such a meaningful contribution. Well done!

IAIN wrote:the only way torrent sites would work to a mentalist's advantage is if you release the ebook version, but with no "how to's"...

Really? Only way?

How about:

You give away ONE trick in full. The method, the effect, the discussion with Max afterwards. All shot BEAUTIFULLY. Edited by a pro. Not using the L&L audience etc.

or

You give away the whole thing, but the best trick on the DVD relies on a handmade impression device (like Mr Riggs makes).

or

You give away the whole thing, but have adverts at the top and tail for other products you offer at a discount.

or

You give away the DVD but offer a one hour webcam tutorial if you actually buy it.

ETC.

There are loads of ways Iain. And the best ones haven't even been thought of yet.

seriously, why dont you go and put a book out on all this...

the market is huge afterall...

you'd make a fortune..according to your research...

none of your suggestions would work - as they all involve real outlay...

i think we should keep this thread going, as you seem to know little about anything else...it'll make you feel wanted...

well, at least til monday when it'll get locked...

BSI, the UK National Standards Body sells international (ISO) standards. These cover everything from making tea (seriously BS6006) to nanotechnology.

I've bought a number of them. When you buy one, it comes with very specific obligations, specifically inasmuch that you don't actually have any rights to the product. You buy an electronic (pdf) version that has your name watermarked on each page and you have the right to print one copy. You can't quote from it, you can't email to anyone, you can't store it electronically, you can't sell it, you can't transfer it, you can't print multiple copies, you simply rent it.

It makes using them a pain (and there's effort required on behalf of BSI), but here at least is a model that could be used if the e-book industry wanted to. (of course it's not perfect, obviously).

I cannot think of a single thread where you mrgoat actually contributed anything constructive or to help anyone. There isn't a thread here where you did anything other than make every attempt to raise hackles and annoy everyone.

Congratulations mrgoat, you are probably the most effective troll I have ever encountered in over 14yrs online. What an amazing record. You should be proud of yourself. Ever heard of Dale Carnegie? No, I didn't think so.

When you reach puberty, perhaps you might manage to argue more intelligently. Keep practicing (somewhere else preferably) though.

Have a nice day

Wishmaster

aporia wrote:BSI, the UK National Standards Body sells international (ISO) standards. These cover everything from making tea (seriously BS6006) to nanotechnology.

I've bought a number of them. When you buy one, it comes with very specific obligations, specifically inasmuch that you don't actually have any rights to the product. You buy an electronic (pdf) version that has your name watermarked on each page and you have the right to print one copy. You can't quote from it, you can't email to anyone, you can't store it electronically, you can't sell it, you can't transfer it, you can't print multiple copies, you simply rent it.

It makes using them a pain (and there's effort required on behalf of BSI), but here at least is a model that could be used if the e-book industry wanted to. (of course it's not perfect, obviously).

And many, many top of the line Magic publications (eBook types) are doing the same thing. The most wonderful of codes is the one Rick Maue and I use that allows us to look at the download and know who's copy it came from and instantly, that person is no longer one of our clients nor will any of our associates sell to them ever again.

So much for the Goats theory... I'm betting he's just an arrogant 14 year old that loves to stir the c*** (not the best) in that is all he's done in nearly every thread he's been on, since arriving.

Craig Browning wrote:So much for the Goats theory... I'm betting he's just an arrogant 14 year old that loves to stir the c*** (not the best) in that is all he's done in nearly every thread he's been on, since arriving.

Did I give you permission to plagiarise me Browning? Dammit, I own copyright on the insults here

Wishmaster wrote:I cannot think of a single thread where you mrgoat actually contributed anything constructive or to help anyone. There isn't a thread here where you did anything other than make every attempt to raise hackles and annoy everyone.

Congratulations mrgoat, you are probably the most effective troll I have ever encountered in over 14yrs online. What an amazing record. You should be proud of yourself. Ever heard of Dale Carnegie? No, I didn't think so.

When you reach puberty, perhaps you might manage to argue more intelligently. Keep practicing (somewhere else preferably) though.

Have a nice day

Wishmaster

That's an excellent contribution. Zounds the irony.

If you disagree with what I say, argue counterpoint intelligently. No one seems to be able to do that here.

Or suggest I am 12. Which ever you find more within your ability.

Just ignore me if I annoy you so much.

Bless.

xxx

Craig Browning wrote:So much for the Goats theory... I'm betting he's just an arrogant 14 year old that loves to stir the c*** (not the best) in that is all he's done in nearly every thread he's been on, since arriving.

I hope when you charge money to pretend to have powers you don't you do better than this, Browning.

Just because I think that you asking members of a forum help you find someone to dish out "carney revenge" on others is a bad idea, no need to start some personal mission against me.

There are plenty of posts where I have answered questions, helped people, pointed people in the right direction.

And this one where I take issue with your seemingly violent tactics to attempt to stop filesharing.

IAIN wrote:seriously, why dont you go and put a book out on all this...

Because all I am doing is linking to what other authors and publishers are doing to make money online. You can read the links yourself. There isn't the market for a book telling people a few links.

IAIN wrote:the market is huge afterall...

The market for old fashioned publishers who don't get digital? Nah, not that big at all. Probably better to email them all, like I did John Riggs. Who wrote me a lovely email back by the way.

IAIN wrote:you'd make a fortune..according to your research...

I disagree, but thanks for the positive thoughts.

IAIN wrote:none of your suggestions would work - as they all involve real outlay...

Not sure of your point here. My ideas wouldn't work because they involve investment?

Really, is that the best you can do in terms of 'proving' my ideas are bad. Because they would require a little investment?

Iain, nearly ALL marketing costs a little bit of money. Bless you!

Publishing a book requires investment, Iain.

My suggestions are simply the stuff that has proven to work already applied to magic.

So I'm afraid they have worked already. Thanks for trying though.

IAIN wrote:i think we should keep this thread going, as you seem to know little about anything else...it'll make you feel wanted...

Heh. I really annoyed you so much you are resorting to childish little digs?

How funny!

Do try and input something meaningful rather than just insinuate I am ignorant without knowing anything about me. If you disagree with my ideas, put across a counterpoint. It will make you look better.

If Trent Reznor DIDN'T make 750k giving away his work, put up a link.

If Cory Doctorow's first book ISN'T in it's 8th physical reprinting (despite being available to download for free from his site and torrents), then put up a link.

All you seem to do is get annoyed, call me names, and insinuate childish things you don't have the balls to actually say.

So, why not take my points to bits proving how silly I am?
Why not post examples of research showing that Trent Reznor is a liar?
Why not cite research that demonstrates Doctorow is making it all up?

Thing is Iain, this is the digital age and people are going to file share. This is an unchanging fact.

So, do you put your head in the sand and publish the old fashioned way or do you try and embrace the digital age and do something clever?

All I am doing is suggesting publishers try something clever and that piracy is unstoppable.

And *that* has annoyed you so much you make snide digs at me?

Sad day.

mrgoat wrote:If you disagree with what I say, argue counterpoint intelligently. No one seems to be able to do that here.

But, even when that is done and your facts are shown to be baseless, you simply repeat yourself over and over again. Take as an example the pages and pages of requests you posted for the results of a double blind research paper into hypnosis. Nothing else would do. No other research quoted was good enough and you gleefully repeated said request time and time again, mocking those who failed to produce such a thing. Here's the real irony mrgoat: No such paper exists. You cannot perform double blind tests on hypnosis. Full stop. You spent all that time arguing the toss about a subject you obviously know nothing about. You are the perfect troll.

The hypnosis thread is the one where I became convinced that you are simply a troll. Interestingly, when the thread got a bit hot for you and you were shot down in flames, you wandered off to a different one to begin again. You must have a very lonely life to waste on such things. The reason nobody seems able to convince you of anything is because you don't really listen when they try. You don't really want answers.

You keep asking for people to "cite research" that you can't be bothered conducting yourself and then berate them for failing to give it you on a plate. It becomes a circular argument of your making and you wonder why people resort to calling you names?! That's just the response you want from us.

Don't mistake my responses to you as annoyance mrgoat, they aren't. If anything, I feel rather sorry for you. The one thing that does puzzle me is your seeming disinterest in magic. Why do you spend so much time on a magic forum, trying to sow discontent? Wouldn't it be far more productive to join in and actually learn something?