talkmagic.co.uk

Ive known its a daft name, but it worked, it was memorable, and it was unique.

My main point is you shouldnt just take someones ideas because they dont use it - be original, be creative, be you, dont be me.

don't take..ask.

at the end of the day, if anybody asked me if they could use any lines of mine, im not likely to say no . Unless its a really good line that i use, then i might say..how much?

if you want to trade in second hand goods, use the "for sale" area...

i would say, out of pride and basic manners - do not pinch/borrow other peoples work/lines...unless you have permission to...

theres dictionaries and thesaurus out there if you need help...

crozboz wrote:There was some dispute over marks OLD name - the teenage trickster. Since it wasnt in use, I wondered if I could use it.

Hey! This gives me a great idea ... Ehrich Weiss from Hungary is not using his stage name anymore, so it's "unused" at the moment. Then I must be able to use it now.

Harry Houdini, what a great stage name!

I am thinking of a small piece of crockery and a popular play from the bard himself...

phronesis wrote:I am thinking of a small piece of crockery and a popular play from the bard himself...

I don't see what Othello's Tea Cup has to do with anything. Let's stay on topic!

My thoughts are that you shouldn't have used the name without permission, nor copied the routines verbatim. To be honest, if you are that good (ie better than Mark was at that age) - why not just come up with your own matrial as performed by you?

Thieving in magic has gone on since time immemorial. And it will continue to go on for evermore. My philosophy in these matters is to accept that it is an occupational hazard and not whine about it. Instead decide to protect yourself from the inevitable. If you are any good you are going to get stolen from. In most cases the thief will not be able to carry it off as well as you can but this is only partial consolation because alas you can get some very talented thieves and they might even in a few cases do a better job that you can with the stolen material.

So how do you protect yourself? That is up to you. I suppose one way is to avoid performing for magicians. The trouble is with an audience of magicians is that you can't win. If they don't like you they will criticise you and if they do like you they will steal from you. And of course sometimes both!

Another method is to steal from the thief if he is any good! Rightful retaliation.

I don't really know what the answer is. You just have to recognise that it is going to happen and protect yourself as best you can. One good way is to do material which is so technically difficult that nobody can pinch it from you without hours of practice!

As for the two children who are arguing here the good news for both of them is that I predict that NEITHER of them will be doing the same material in a couple of years so they may as well stop arguing about it at the moment.

Even the biggest names steal. David Copperfield is always quick to sue somebody that he thinks is stealing from him yet he has had the audacity to steal from Charles Dickens. The name "David Copperfield" comes from a classic of English literature and I think it is a disgrace for some impertinent American with a false smile and creepy personality to just help himself because the name happens to be out there.

In my capacity as a psychic reverend I have been in touch with Charles Dickens in the spirit world concerning the matter. Charles informs me that he used to be an amateur magician himself and he is highly displeased with this Kotkin upstart. In fact he is raising the Dickens about it.

mark lewis wrote:In my capacity as a psychic reverend I have been in touch with Charles Dickens in the spirit world concerning the matter. Charles informs me that he used to be an amateur magician himself and he is highly displeased with this Kotkin upstart. In fact he is raising the Dickens about it.

Totally off topic - hillarious ....

come on you two, I can see why you're upset Mark but is there really any need for this? Why don't you both come to some agreement. Crozboz why don't you take a look at Mark's ideas but then change them and put your own spin on them.

I don't think that there's any need to get this upset.

Along these lines, I'm thinking of changing my working name to Tommy Wonder. Or Houdini. After all, nobody's using them.

Seriously though, awesome thread guys. Mark's right, you're not going to be using your current material/lines in a few years. I can't see either of you caring who was rightfully "the teenaged trickster" when you're both well into your twenties.

gunnarkr wrote:

crozboz wrote:There was some dispute over marks OLD name - the teenage trickster. Since it wasnt in use, I wondered if I could use it.

Hey! This gives me a great idea ... Ehrich Weiss from Hungary is not using his stage name anymore, so it's "unused" at the moment. Then I must be able to use it now.

Harry Houdini, what a great stage name!

There are actually several fools out there that have used variations to this and even the Blackstone name in recent years.... I can't count the number of young's using the character names form classic literature; I've encountered at least three "Oliver Twists" and two that dance around the idea of being an "Artful Dodger"

A few points have been made in this thread that I believe cut to the quick of it all.

1.) You're both KIDS... for real! e.g. neither of you seem to have the real world foundations that instill respect, ethics, and in our case PROFESSIONALISM. Because of this both of you are acting petty and a touch immature.

2.) Person "b" is deliberately choosing to do routines and perhaps a duplicate act created and broken in by person "a" e.g. Person "b" is in the wrong. Screw the line stealing, you are stealing someone else's act, PERIOD! Where I could forgive or even give blessing to someone doing one piece from my show in theirs (so long as it wasn't one of my pet bits and something I was currently using) but if someone were doing a show in which 30% or more of it came from my act and (probably) the acts of other people? Sorry, but you're an uncreative bottom feeder when that's the case.

3.) DRAMA... as in you are both acting (re-acting) as little Drama Queens and need to slap yourselves silly and GET OVER IT!

If "proof" of deliberate replication exists then sue the schmuck for theft of material. But you have to be able to prove that over 60% of what this person does in each routine as well as the act itself, mirrors your own. You then make it very public, taking it to the leadership of the local Ring, Magic Circle and even Magic Castle. Believe it or not, all of these organizations will consider what you bring out and can aid as both, witness and mediator when it comes to finding a resolution. BUT, don't waste their time if this is just two kids bickering. Make certain you have a legit argument and proof of how these acts of imitation are affecting you professionally, emotionally and (most important) ECONOMICALLY. If you can meet all those requisites you can pretty much destroy the copy cat on all levels... something few such individuals ever weigh when it comes to this sort of game.

Admittedly I'm a bit bias when it comes to this sort of thing in that every single teacher I ever had refused to let me do things "how everyone else did it" or worse, in a way that mimics the originator of said routine.

I recall a situation in which this kind of thing was done, the person that was victimized in this case was Terry Seabroke and his popular Burnt Bill and Wallet routine. The person that stole the routine did just about every single line of Terry's except for the barking dog and offering a sugar to their helper.

By chance, the guy that stole this material just happened to be in the Castle the same night Terry was and the night after said routine aired on the Television. Terry simply walked up to him and punched him right in the face and Mr. Copperfield went down...

In other words, this sort of thing happens constantly in this industry no matter how big your name. But there are likewise ramifications in every instance, some of which can prove quite painful.

Having thought about it, maybe I have over-reacted about it, however when someone has been using your material and you have apprached them before about it, THEN they start using something else of yours, its highly offensive.

I explained why I didnt want him to use it, and explained that he should have his own originality, to which i got a reply which suggested he was going to do it with or without my blessing.


Surely you can understand my anger??

frustration, rather than anger..

by the way, you have just mised out on a pair of cut no cut. Tom had some for sale. 12 quid.Post included.

I'm not a working entertainer, but I can understand your frustration. I don't understand why crozboz feels the need to do what he's doing, but you need to rise above it, accept that things like this will happen, stay focused and professional, and try to resolve it. If you get no joy, then just move on, safe in the knowledge that you at least handled it as best you could. In situations like this, you have no control over another individual's moral compass; as long as you conduct yourself in an appropriate manner, you can walk away with your pride intact and your head held high.

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Right?

I can understand your anger but at the same time take it as a bit of a compliment that someone thought so much of an effect that you were doing that they had to steal it from you. I doubt I'll ever create something that someone else would think was good enough for them to rip off.

My advice is to take the punch like a man, work on an entirely new routine/adult persona and then devise some more tricks to astound and infuriate your competition.

I'm sure if you think about it long enough you'll realise that the plagiarised parts of your act are probably quite old now and in no way reflect how far along your talent has come since you originally devised them. Let the kid play with your old toys, you can make much better and more impressive ones.

And stick with the community, we'll want to know about how awesome your new material is.