talkmagic.co.uk

going back on topic and to some of the issues raised - i would say that no matter who you are, you dont try and pinch a freebie copy off people...that i believe is called stealing...

if some of the condensed coal pooping bigwigs decide to do it, then thats their problem...and they should know better...

though weirdly, if they are bigwigs, then they'll have plenty of money to buy them, or indeed - be sent free copies for comments anyway...

EDIT - oh and a very, very big wig actually told me recently that some of this 'sharing' does happen, however - the vital step missed out by craig was that its done with permission from the author...if you get told "no", then that's the end of it...

EDIT2 - i'd also appreciate an apology on this thread too please, as this was nothing to do with craig asking three people about giving him electronic copies of someone else's work for free...

Iain... if you didn't, on any level, post this for the sake of getting a rise out of me, then I most certainly will apologies. Call me suspicious, but I don't buy into that much innocents in this case but then, I am paranoid as charged, but for good reason.

Yes, I too have shared copy with permission. I've even stated that on this forum over the years. I'm also aware of which "big wig" you're probably chatting with in that he'd recently mentioned you and something he was working on.

You're still trying to paint this for what it isn't btw. Totally ignoring the question I've put forth that our mutual friend along side others, have commented on over the years, most of whom view such exchanges as both, common and innocent with no malice intended. You also skate over my explanation to things that brought about this particular situation and the fact that it was done with the intent of coming to someone's defense and my need to have duckies lined up before speaking up, knowing that I could not bring the issue to said party until such was done. So let's keep things properly framed if we're going to point fingers.

As to this coming off the Cafe, I love it! That's one of the biggest den of thieves on line! More of their members have been busted, caught red-handed (by me and several others) and at least one of the original big dollar advertisers had a massive reputation for stealing material and producing/selling effects that were unsanctioned to which he deliberately NEVER paid any commissions nor his buyers paying performance rights to. The successor of said builder not falling all that far from the same tree.

Again, I'm far from guilty of any kind of collusion or plan to take the author... any author, for a ride. I have nothing to gain from such antics nor do most of the people I know. What I am guilty of stems from the very same thing any other person is guilty of if they ever borrowed or loaned out a book, building plans, etc. As I said, are you going to insist that every library or private collector charge a fee for material access and send that money back to the author? Are you and your chums going to have the audacity to tell the world that any form of book lending is illegal?

I know of at least three huge magic libraries that were donated to the local public library upon the death of some local guy most of the world has never heard of, who happened to love magic... we're talking about dozens if not hundreds of books. So has this guy and his family done wrong by gifting that material to someone else or to such a public resource?

I want to know where the line in the sand exists and thus far I'm only seeing finger pointing.

the thread was started by paul brook who found a load of his work on a site, and asked people to check to see if theirs was on there too...

and luke sheild is an aussie fella who generously set up and runs (all for free) an online bookstore, housing the great and the good's work...he doesnt even ask for commission...he supplied the link...

also, if you owned tomo's work legally, you'll find he tells you where all the data comes from...so that's that I'm afraid...

the crux of the book is, he's tabulated it, found out workable methods, and researched the psychology behind it all and broke it down into learnable methods and explains WHY it works...plus the routines, ideas and applications too...

so an apology to all involved will be nice...i look forward to it...

with places like The Learned Pig - its material out of copyright, and books donated by the owners of the material, like Martin Breese...

i like to deal in facts craig, no more, no less...

anyway, there you go...the book is researched, available from lulu.com, legally...

Kind of like the "Fact" that certain people don't really know who I am or that a certain friend of ours told you that Max and others from the Castle have no clue who I am?

I have an email from that friend that says otherwise and even your own tone in our IMs shifted when you realized you got caught up in such things.

Sorry but I think your fact finding is a bit weak as is that of others who really want to discredit me.

Since this whole can of worms got opened I've had several people offer me copies of his material AND I TURNED IT DOWN.

Why?

Because what I started off to do had good intentions and for that I have been constantly pounded by you wanting an apology and plagued by two-penny lawyer speak by the other. At this point I don't care if I ever see any of his material... or yours for that matter.

I should point out however that one more time you have side stepped my question. You are pointing fingers and throwing a tantrum towards me with blinders on and cotton in your ears it would seem in that you cannot offer an honest response to my query as to where the line exists in the sand and how to deal with the friendly lending and borrowing of books or the library system, or even the efforts to digitize and make available a current and complete magic resource center/on-line library?

Who is going to be there to collect the royalties when Joe Shmoe and Danny Doolittle share their most recent purchases with one another? For that matter, have YOU sent in your payment to the appropriate people for books lent or borrowed by you? Based on this argument you certainly should have or else you should buy the book and not even glimpse as your friend's copy.

This is the issue followed by how such sharing is being done on the virtual frontier and by far more people than not... and that does include the "big wigs" as you say. It has included the majority since day one and I'd say that most who deny having ever done so are bold faced liars... there are a few that I know for fact, won't do such things because of this grey area I'm speaking of and the lack of clarification that exists on this front.

Rather than defending your friend and justifying your venom, maybe you should re-read what I've asked and weigh those FACTS a bit. Help us all find clarity on this very grey issue, so that the ritual of sharing isn't threatened or totally cut off and the real criminals, such as I've described and preached against for years, are prosecuted.... or persecuted, if we are to support a wall of shame idea, which I am all for btw. BUT, not just in instances where one or two people complain about one single person that swapped one file... that's simply wrong and goes back to the Scarlet Letter scenario or how things pertaining to sexually based transgressions have reached the state of extreme ridiculousness in this country -- young people stigmatized for their entire life because they were doing what teens do and got caught... or an 18 year old boy is dating a 15 year old girl while they are both in school... the list is long and disgusting but it shows how fanaticism around an issue can cause undue harm to others. Something I'd personally like to see not happen when it comes to addressing this grey zone.

As to apologies... I'll apologies to you guys the day I see a very loud public apology from you all over the BS that's been spread about me on various forums and behind the scenes. Incomplete perspectives, theories and supposition that has been grossly exaggerated because of one person's agenda. I can assure you that I've NEVER claimed to be more than I am. I've always admitted to being a screw-up and someone that's "almost" made it in our world; that I've had some really great years but far more down time. I've likewise rubbed elbows with everything from magic's top brass to heads of state and even the Dahlia Lama, but I've likewise pointed out that much of this came as happenstance.

There are always three sides to every issue; the perspectives of those standing to either side of the median and the common truths between those extremes that define the more likely facts of the matter. It is this grey area that affects us all on many levels and around many different things. Until we can come into that grey area and find common ground, there is no possibility of "truth" let alone "justice" or things like honest ethics, integrity and even honor. This is a fact that has been taught for thousands of years but like the famed Golden Rule, humankind is reluctant to accept its challenge and thus, we have conflict.

I will not continue with this back and forth. I've said what I need to say and explained my position on things. I've put forth a very logical challenge of sorts and as I've seen in other forums, folks are reluctant to participate, probably out of guilt and fear -- guilt in that they have done exactly what I describe and fear that they will get black-balled by the elitists that thing their stuff don't stink when it comes to this sort of thing... the stigma of it all and the politics being the hurdle they are afraid to jump over. A look at how this thread has unfolded and how I've been made out as something lower than a snake's belly proves this very point.

Until we shift to discussing what I've asked about, I'm out of here.

come on you two this is all sounding a bit pathetic. If you want to have squabbles can't you do it in private?

Not wading in on the main parts of the arguement but Craig, if were asking THREE people to get a copy of Iain's book to check that he was innocent or to defend him, well why blow me down with a feather duster did you just not ask the guy who wrote the book?

Asking others for his material, regardless of your stated intention, is still surely wrong?

Stop the bickering.

I'm leaving the contentious posts in place above because their authors apparently aren't ashamed of them but if anything else is posted on the matter then it will be removed.

Craig Browning wrote:Until we shift to discussing what I've asked about, I'm out of here.

You could have summed that chapter of War & Peace up with this, surely.

so we are all clear on this, this thread was not derailed by me, i didnt mention anything to do with what craig did...i tried to deal with it privately...

and no, I'm NOT ashamed or being pathetic about what i did say, I'm standing up for what's right and being honest...

and I'm getting pretty sick of all the rubbish being talked, as well as dodging all the toys being thrown out of the pram...

i tell you something else for nothing - I'm getting mightily annoyed with people who kick off all the time and then call foul when people call them up on it...

actions speak louder than words...

Was this thread started with the aim of instigating the argument (which, incidentally, I neither have the time nor the desire to understand fully) though?

Not that it matters, because this thread's going to get whitewashed before long.

madvillainy wrote:Was this thread started with the aim of instigating the argument (which, incidentally, I neither have the time nor the desire to understand fully) though?

Not that it matters, because this thread's going to get whitewashed before long.

no, it wasnt...

but thanks for the comments...

I didn't bother reading Craig's novels, so I don't really know where this topic is headed, but I think that site is a waste of time and effort. What good does knowing Who, how old and what a pirate looks like?



This is Peter who is 41 years old. Does that make anyone feel better?

As much as piracy is bad, there are a lot of people who buy what they 'pirate' if it was something they'll use and is decent. Due to the nature of our craft the 'dealers' have to be vague about what they are selling, and as such people tend to get ripped off.

Off the top of my head the only thing that I can think of that would be of some use (certainly more than stalking the kids who are 'stealing' the magic to show their friends [as opposed to making money off it themselves]) would be some sort of website set up where you would pay membership fees (monthly, annual, etc) where you could peruse magic that is available and then pay separately for necessary gimmicks and so forth.

I'm sure there are many problems associated with this too, but maybe a screening process could help keep it relatively legit. It won't stop it totally, but it could maybe be a start.

Until something can be done or something needs to be done, ie. magic producers going on complete strike for fear of piracy! , then I think we should spend our time practicing more of what we love and less time worrying about something that is pretty trivial in the grand scheme of things.

all i would say is, when you work hard at what you do, mind your own business in life in general - and basically be a nice decent person, then people come along and take what you've worked hard on for free...

well, its pretty hard to take that...

remember building those house of cards on the table, then someone comes along and thinks its funny to blow it all down - amplify that a million times, and then imagine being whacked in the face with an otter...its around that kinda annoyance level...

I skimmed through a bit more, and what I seem to have gathered is that IAIN, you are offering free copies of a book you or someone else made? Maybe it was Craig? Regardless, I'm down!

oh how we've missed you...