PIRACY & THIEVES

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Postby jackleg » Aug 27th, '09, 21:43



I'd like to enter my 2penneth for what it's worth...

I think magic spans several issues of (for want of a better phrase) copyright. Let me try and explain...
If, as an inventor/creator/retailer, you put your time and money into an effect for purposes of selling to make a profit (because its your career) and someone duplicates your work and gives it away you don't make as much money for the product and risk going out of business!
Just to state the obvious bit!
The sting is often made worse in some (thankfully few) cases, if that same person is selling your duplicated product! We all know this to be theft by any other name.
However...
Magic is an art form that can not be policed, but the tools of the art can. Interlectual property - to me the most precious commodity - Is worth more than the sum of its individual parts but is often stolen without a thought to the victim.

Here I believe is that line in my own personal sand.

Unlike music, once a magician has aquired the knowledge he/she does not necessarily have to revisit the material again and again - I personaly enjoy owning the source of my learning and always endeavour to do so.

I am not pure though. I have borrowed books and DVD's mainly to see if it's worth adding to my library. I have my own moral laws that i enforce - if I like it, I buy it. not a copy. I am also aware that this is not a sentiment shared by all.

Those who share the torrent files etc with the lofty opinion that information should be free to all and not restricted to the financially privelidged few, are missing the point when it comes to magic.

Secrets are our thing. Sharing the knowledge should be at the discretion of the interlectual owner and not a 3rd party.

Thank you for listening

PS if anyone wants a dodgy copy of Derren Browns Devils Hand book.... :lol: :lol:

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Postby IAIN » Aug 27th, '09, 21:50

i think that all the out of copyright books should be digitized and saved, if there's no living relative or owner around...look at the al mann stuff on lybrary.com - its with the estate's permission...

i think anyone who wishes to share their work with friends and mentors should do so freely

i think anyone who wishes to give a copy away to a magic library should be free to do so

i dont think a copy of a current book should be added to a shared magic library without the author's permission though, and i definately don't think you should ask for copies of people's work for free, via a third party...

sharing work is fine, if its with the author's blessing - but obtaining a copy for free by other means is definately out of order...

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Postby nickj » Aug 27th, '09, 21:52

IAIN wrote:so we are all clear on this, this thread was not derailed by me, i didnt mention anything to do with what craig did...i tried to deal with it privately...

and no, I'm NOT ashamed or being pathetic about what i did say, I'm standing up for what's right and being honest...

and I'm getting pretty sick of all the rubbish being talked, as well as dodging all the toys being thrown out of the pram...

i tell you something else for nothing - I'm getting mightily annoyed with people who kick off all the time and then call foul when people call them up on it...

actions speak louder than words...


Be that as it may, this forum is not the place to have your arguments. whenever this kind of situation arises we ask that people take the issue up in private rather than on the public forum, and many members get involved and ask the same thing, yet the situations occur again and again, and frequently involve established members who know how bad it looks.

You may be sick of rubbish being talked, toys thrown out of prams and people who kick off, but the rest of us have to deal with it from both sides so have some respect for the forum and keep it private in future.

Since we are now back on topic, the thread will remain in place and open for the moment.

Last edited by nickj on Aug 27th, '09, 21:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby IAIN » Aug 27th, '09, 21:54

i have tried to move the conversation on, nick...

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Postby nickj » Aug 27th, '09, 21:56

Sorry, I started to respond about 10 posts ago and then my edit came too late too!

Carry on!

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Postby IAIN » Aug 27th, '09, 22:01

:D

if we could download max maven's brain - that would be very good...

i've always thought a decent online library (i think it was even discussed a few years ago on here?) of who invented what method/technique...that would be a fantastic resource for crediting...so you could just type in PATEO and get Roy Baker and so on...

it wouldnt reveal the method behind it - just a basic description, and point you to a book...

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Postby jackleg » Aug 27th, '09, 22:03

IAIN wrote::D

if we could download max maven's brain - that would be very good...

i've always thought a decent online library (i think it was even discussed a few years ago on here?) of who invented what method/technique...that would be a fantastic resource for crediting...so you could just type in PATEO and get Roy Baker and so on...

it wouldnt reveal the method behind it - just a basic description, and point you to a book...


Like an oracle! what a lovely idea.... the family tree of magic!

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Postby nickj » Aug 27th, '09, 22:22

Something like this was certainly mentioned, and I've got a vague recollection that someone posted a link to a first draft. I'll have a search when I get a moment.

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Postby Part-Timer » Aug 27th, '09, 22:26

IAIN wrote:if we could download max maven's brain - that would be very good...


Or maybe do what Odin did with Mimir?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%ADmir

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Postby Craig Browning » Aug 28th, '09, 16:19

jackleg

You are amazingly close to what I've been trying to say.

I confessed to a situation and explained my intent, I can't do more than that. But at the same time I cannot buy into the idea that I've done a great wrong in that the borrowing and lending of materials is a constant and happens daily, without intent of malice or taking advantage of the author, etc. and this is where my issue takes focus.

If this is "wrong" who here is going to willingly cough up the lost revenue and mail it to the authors every time they loan or borrow a book or DVD from a friend? From the Magic Club Library? etc.

The anal retentive position of some... such as it has done within all of society on various levels and in address of numerous issues... has robbed us all of the innocence of friendly exchange -- a ritual that has been going on for thousands of years vs. the couple of short decades the internet has been contributing to our lives at both, positive and negative levels.

I counted it up the other night, the number of times I've asked someone for material by someone else over the past three years... the answer is that I've done so twice. As to lending material out that wasn't mine to give... maybe a dozen times and most typically with the blessing of the author... it is well known that I will do such if and when I believe what I share will be put to proper use by the recipient and within the parameters of the act/project we are working on at the time.

Whether this thread and the web site it discusses was intentionally or subconsciously posted with intent of placing me or anyone else in the hot seat is NOT the issue. The issue is where do things honestly fit when it comes to the real world.

I'm both writer and a noted contributor to numerous innovations in this craft. That's not my ego speaking, it is a fact of life that any number of people can attest to. Like every single person I know that stands in a similar position I've had ideas and material snatched and even had others sign their names to them. If I got my shorts twisted in a knot for every time that's happened I'd be more than just impotent.

The realities are quite simple; though they may not say it at the public level PEOPLE SHARE INFORMATION this is absolutely no way to stop that or change it unless we are to go back to some very brutal information control methods of the past. The second reality is the fact that someone is giving all the Torrent/File Share and Black Marketeers a reason to exist. Though you aren't likely to find many with the guts to admit to participating in such resources many do and do so on a regular basis; about every six weeks, as new things hit the market and they get curious about the newest trick of the month everyone is rambling on about.

I covered this in that "War & Peace" post I made earlier that no one wants to read all the way through and where I first asked just where the line exists that transmutes the act of occasional sharing amongst friends or club members to the level of criminal behavior?

I also have to ask just who is going to take on establishments such as public libraries or those owned and operated by various fraternal groups, when it comes to this issue; most of which end up with all materials released in the past year either via estate settlement or member donation or even club purchase. Regardless, it goes into a state of general access.

BTW... I can assure you that even the "big wigs" borrow and lend books though they could afford to buy them. Most of them however, wont just run out and drop $100.00 or so just to own a book that "might" have something worth while; they want to know that the investment is going to pay off. One chum of mine has no problem dropping a few hundred bucks into a book or DVD set so long as he learns one single thing that will give him a hint of advantage. But we are talking about a guy the nets over a million a year... I don't think the majority of us fall into that category and thus, our expectation on material is must greater.... and the price at times can be as well...
... how many of us post a "Clearance Sale" here?

Technically... if we buy into the BS around cutting into income, it is wrong to sell our used books and videos unless royalties are being sent back to the author and we aren't seeing any personal gain. Without making a copy of the product we are still making the information available to others who aren't giving the originator cash and kudos for the privilege...

Though its deliberately an innocent nit that I'm picking here, it still falls into that grey area that sustains the ritual of friendly sharing, which is the real victim to all this... the "soft target" some choose to pounce on vs. the real threat.

So I have to ask one more time for clarity... who and what is the real enemy of the writer/innovator and why?

Is there any such thing as innocent sharing any more?

If so, how are we to sustain and define this given the expanded sense of community we now have as the result of our technological age?

My position is the same as it's always been; either side must be defended for similar though likewise different reasons. Regardless, the fanaticism achieves NOTHING. It is unrealistic and denies the industry of effective focus.

I'm aware of at least a dozen copies of my EASY READING that's been circulated amongst members of this forum alone. I don't care! I know it's going to happen and I know it is not done out of spite (in most cases). What does tick me off is the $4,000.00 dollars of estimated lost revenue from that book because of one single Torrent posting... especially when you consider that I've not seen much more than that from that particular book in the six years it's been out.

I don't want to hear about how badly casual sharing hurts writers from those not wearing shoes similar to my own and of genuine need of income... government subsidy just don't hack it... I'm certain most of you would agree. But look at who isn't screaming loudest... and it's not just me, there are many others in far worse medical condition than I, who are being abused in the same way and yet, don't bitch nearly as much as the healthy "pump out the material" money grabbers of our industry.

Again, something to think about. :wink:

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Postby nickj » Aug 28th, '09, 16:41

I don't think that anyone is really condemning the casual sharing idea here, just the large scale piracy. It seems a lot of people are saying the same thing and not realising that everyone is agreeing!

As for selling on old books and videos, this comes down to personal preference, but unless a book is out of print I will always get a new copy (when it's magic related) simply so that I know that little extra I am paying is helping the authors. I've mentioned this in the past and been called a liar as a result, but I know I'm not the only one out there who does this.

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Postby Craig Browning » Aug 29th, '09, 05:42

nickj wrote:I don't think that anyone is really condemning the casual sharing idea here, just the large scale piracy. It seems a lot of people are saying the same thing and not realising that everyone is agreeing!

As for selling on old books and videos, this comes down to personal preference, but unless a book is out of print I will always get a new copy (when it's magic related) simply so that I know that little extra I am paying is helping the authors. I've mentioned this in the past and been called a liar as a result, but I know I'm not the only one out there who does this.


Nope, you're spot on. I know a good dozen or so folks of "good standing" that do exactly that.

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Postby the Curator » Aug 29th, '09, 08:09

Bravo, a perfect initiative.

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Postby the Curator » Sep 1st, '09, 08:25

A french thief by the name of Bertran Gille offered my books in pdf for free to the members of his forum (see screenshot). A lawsuit will be taken. When he knew that I was aware about the theft he shut his forum immediately (but too late) and opened... a new one.

Image

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Postby Jean » Sep 1st, '09, 09:07

Wait a minuete your Christian Chelman? Holy s*** your book capriconian tales is the reason I got into bizzar magik. I was performing at a festival in Äsarp Sweden and it was your Zodiac routiene that allowed me to get enough money to eat.

Invoke not reason. In the end it is too small a deity.
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