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I do not want to wade in to this in any particular vein however I did just want to mention an anecdote which is the reason I have so much conviction in proper, independent, unbiased scientific process.

(i.e. Not oil of olay claiming "scientifically proven" based on results from 120 desperate women).

When I was applying to university I remember seeing a Horizon special on the theory (I believe it has now been proven Tomo ) that the galaxy orbits a supermassive black hole (not the awesome Muse song) and this had been identified by a lone scientist with very little support as it contradicted the existing consensus. The documentary proceeded and although I forget exactly how long it took, it was about 3 or 4 years before the hypothesis was accepted as a valid theory. This annoyed me quite a bit, this guy was right and it took YEARS for the scientific community to accept it. I went off to my next University interview feeling all self-righteous and asked the lecturer conducting my interview why it had taken so long for science to move ahead, to which he replied that the scientific community could not just accept his word and evidence for it, they had to check things first.

I've simplified somewhat because of my paled memories however I suppose you could take this two ways;

Either the "Scientific Community" are arrogant and refuse to accept new ideas, even if they are right until they have spent time researching and analysing this is the case, or they do each idea justice by making sure the claims are valid and the evidence supports it.

I do not doubt alternative medicine "works" for some people, what interests me more is why it works because the proponents of it are scientifically way off base. Homeopathy is one of the alternative medicines which fills me with incredulity that the explanation given is actually accepted by sane, rational people. What fills me with still more incredulity is that many claim it works.

This implies to me three possible answers;

They would have got better with or without the treatment.
The treatment worked in the way it was explained
It was the placebo effect or some other causal relationship that has nothing to do with the official explanation

Needless to say, when I am ill I will be going to the doctor to be treated until the proper scientific community can prove more elements of alternative medicine so they become mainstream.

Just one last thing, not intended to bait or troll or anything else along those lines. I have read the entire thread and followed it page by page and there are many that appear to base their opinion solely on having read Tricks of the Mind, even one poster going so far as to quote something from the God Delusion (or Devil's Chaplain I forget which) as being from Tricks of the Mind (in TOTM it uses several references to both books to support the argument presented). Although as it turns out your opinions appear to be the same as mine, I would encourage any of you that base your opinions solely on reading Mr Browns book to at least do him and yourselves some justice and read around the area before quoting it as gospel. Oh and on the note of homeopathic evidence, Google it, there are plenty of "proven" studies. I just feel that the contrary evidence is more scientifically valid.

Phew, sorry went on a bit there.

IAIN wrote:

Craig Browning wrote:you guys don't want to see data that might cause you to question the gospels you've embraced. That's where the conflict exists

but havent quite a few asked to see this data?! I'm confused...

I'm off to drop a couple of disprin into the sea now, so we can all never suffer from headaches again...

aahh, but he's not playing that game...even though he will keep saying those things to prove his point...but wont show you, because he won't fall for that one. errr?

If there was any legitimate evidence then he would have posted it, with a big 'F' you to anyone who are so closed minded not to believe absolutely anything anyone tells us. But then again, if he were to provide this data, the scientific method is just as right and wrong as everything else, so would be a pointless exercise anyway!

From New Scientist:

Don't try this at home. Several times a day, for several days, you induce pain in someone. You control the pain with morphine until the final day of the experiment, when you replace the morphine with saline solution. Guess what? The saline takes the pain away.

This is the placebo effect: somehow, sometimes, a whole lot of nothing can be very powerful. Except it's not quite nothing. When Fabrizio Benedetti of the University of Turin in Italy carried out the above experiment, he added a final twist by adding naloxone, a drug that blocks the effects of morphine, to the saline. The shocking result? The pain-relieving power of saline solution disappeared.

So what is going on? Doctors have known about the placebo effect for decades, and the naloxone result seems to show that the placebo effect is somehow biochemical. But apart from that, we simply don't know.

Benedetti has since shown that a saline placebo can also reduce tremors and muscle stiffness in people with Parkinson's disease. He and his team measured the activity of neurons in the patients' brains as they administered the saline. They found that individual neurons in the subthalamic nucleus (a common target for surgical attempts to relieve Parkinson's symptoms) began to fire less often when the saline was given, and with fewer "bursts" of firing - another feature associated with Parkinson's. The neuron activity decreased at the same time as the symptoms improved: the saline was definitely doing something.

We have a lot to learn about what is happening here, Benedetti says, but one thing is clear: the mind can affect the body's biochemistry. "The relationship between expectation and therapeutic outcome is a wonderful model to understand mind-body interaction," he says. Researchers now need to identify when and where placebo works. There may be diseases in which it has no effect. There may be a common mechanism in different illnesses. As yet, we just don't know.

Notice that the researchers are trying to understand what's going on in a methodical and repeatable way. To understand a mystery, they're asking if, and how, and most importantly, why. They're not insisting they intuitively have some sort of truth on a hunch.

The reason it works for Parkinson's is blatantly because it rains on parks and the water runs into the rivers to the sea where it homeopathicaly blends with the salt making saline solutions uber powerful homeopathic remedies.

Obvious when you think about it!

Harry Guinness wrote:The reason it works for Parkinson's is blatantly because it rains on parks and the water runs into the rivers to the sea where it homeopathicaly blends with the salt making saline solutions uber powerful homeopathic remedies.

Obvious when you think about it!

Or... http://tinyurl.com/yem5os2

so, to conclude, homeopathy is b*ll*cks, when you compare evidence both for, and against

This comment makes for interesting reading - a former homeopathist talks about their training experiences.

From Australia's ABC News: "A homeopath has been sentenced to at least six years in jail and his wife will serve at least four years for the manslaughter of their eczema-stricken daughter." http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 ... 698762.htm

I think this is the main problem with placebo-based treatments - that most people require an explanation for how they work, which generates a pseudo-science that over-reaches. The ritual of taking a sugar-pill to make you feel a bit more chipper is underpinned by something that, if it were to be believed, can also serve to cure eczema, or diarrhea (globally the 2nd biggest kid killer). The "science" behind a treatment always appears stronger than the measured effect. And so a Westerner who has had some success cheering up grannies decides to travel to South Africa to take on the HIV crisis.

Chiropractic began because Palmer manipulated someone's spine and it coincided with the patient regaining some hearing. From that stemmed a whole system that is ostensibly bunk, and a groundless belief that that system can cure all manner of illnesses. Ultimately we find that the only thing chiropractic has to offer is unnecessary x-rays and limited relief for chronic lower back pain.

One of the first clues to all this is missing research. When a new system is created, you'll find that very rapidly it starts to be marketed for a huge range of ailments, which raises the question of exactly how the creator has gained the knowledge of what the system can treat. This gap in the history of a treatment's development is true in both Dianetics and radionics, as examples.

Tomo wrote:From Australia's ABC News: "A homeopath has been sentenced to at least six years in jail and his wife will serve at least four years for the manslaughter of their eczema-stricken daughter." http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009 ... 698762.htm

I do not see any difference between this and someone refusing their child proper treatment on the grounds of "religious beliefs". I know the court can over turn the parents decision in certain (all?) circumstances but I wonder if it would have been the same decision in that circumstance.

A_n_t I believe there's a trial in America at the moment looking at that very issue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-sch ... 94891.html

And for a bit of light relief...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty33v7UYYbw

Put It To The Test is fun too.

Mr_Grue wrote:A_n_t I believe there's a trial in America at the moment looking at that very issue.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-sch ... 94891.html

Ant is fine (Ant was taken as a username ).

Interesting article, thanks.

I am just waiting for the counter arguement;

"If a child is taken to a doctor and dies, do the parents get convicted for not trying alternative healing."

Unfortunately I think this issue in particular is something that will be a long time going away.

[quote="Mr_Grue]Bells' Palsy gets better over time.[/quote]
Our maths teacher had Bells Palsy. It did get a bit better. she already had it when we we started and it definitely improved by the time I left the 6th form.

I found out recently that your love is like bad medicine and bad medicine is what I need.
You do actually shake it up, just like bad medicine and it turned out that there ain't no doctor that can cure my disease.

All of which is truely fascinating