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Does that count as exposure? Or is it just mentioining the name of a routine? I'm not too sure where the distinction is.

If it does count as exposure then should we be refraining from mentioning the names of any tricks or routines in the open forums?

I bought my own fave d/a routine a few months ago which always gets very strong reaction - until we've decided whether naming it counts as exposure or not, I'll just offer the details to the OP if he/she would like to PM me.

I hope this doesn't come across as combative, it's really not meant to be.

cheers,

Sean

I think the issue here is that it is a well-known method but being used in a way unusual enough for people not to spot it (not that you can spot much from the way it is shot anyway). Most of us are aware of the existence of the one-way forcing deck, but that doesn't mean we can expose any trick that utilises one.

These waters are muddied further by Brown's "crediting" of the effect, but that's my take on it anyhew.

Fair point... to be fair it's been such a long time since I've seen DB perform that effect that I can't remember how it looked on TV! All I can remember was the OOTW comment at the end!

Sean

It's shot and edited in such a way that you can't see what method he's using, assuming you know (or think you know) what you're looking for. Personally, I quite like the routine but I can understand how some people would dislike it. I think Derren is the best at what he does and I have long ago given up trying to figure out how he does the things he does.

Reverend Tristan wrote:and as for the remark about mentalism just being magic where you make it look like you're doing something with you mind, keep thinking that mate,

Prey tell, then, what is it?

Mentalism *is* the same magic. The OP said that Derren did mentalism not magic. They are the same thing. They use sleight of hand and other gimmicks and techniques to make your audience think something happened that didn't happen.

The card didn't come to the top of the deck on its own.
You didn't really know what number they were thinking of.

But if you disagree what do you think the essential differences are between magic and mentalism then?

Please enlighten us, it's clear you're the expert here.

Damian, your tone in this thread has been somewhat hostile, defensive and sarcastic. Why? Chill out. No one is out to get you. If you have a point to make, there are ways of approaching it without rubbing people up the wrong way or coming across like a troll, which I'm sure is not your intention.

I am certainly no expert, but I would like to attempt to answer your question, if I may. Yes, I guess mentalism would come under the broad umbrella of magic, but there are different areas of magic and I think it's fair to say that there is a differentiation between mentalism and, say, card magic.

damianjennings wrote:

Reverend Tristan wrote:and as for the remark about mentalism just being magic where you make it look like you're doing something with you mind, keep thinking that mate,

Prey tell, then, what is it?

Mentalism *is* the same magic. The OP said that Derren did mentalism not magic. They are the same thing. They use sleight of hand and other gimmicks and techniques to make your audience think something happened that didn't happen.

The card didn't come to the top of the deck on its own.
You didn't really know what number they were thinking of.

But if you disagree what do you think the essential differences are between magic and mentalism then?

Please enlighten us, it's clear you're the expert here.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Don't wind up the mentalists, you'll never hear the end of it!

I'm sure that there are plenty of 'magic effects' that can be turned into mentalist or at least mind magic effects, all it takes is imagination and a little bit messing around with the presentation. Of course, there are plenty of mentalist effects that can be added to a magicians set list as well, just it would be a lot harder to convince the audience that you have unearthly powers if you've just done a sponge ball routine.

Aye. I'd say the difference is that in mentalism you're pursuing belief, in magic you're pursuing spectacl, of one kind or another. If there's any spectacle to be had in mentalism at all, then it must come from the belief you've created in the audience. Beyond that Derren Brown is just some guy witha roll of paper and a metal box.

Mr_Grue wrote:Aye. I'd say the difference is that in mentalism you're pursuing belief, in magic you're pursuing spectacl, of one kind or another. If there's any spectacle to be had in mentalism at all, then it must come from the belief you've created in the audience. Beyond that Derren Brown is just some guy witha roll of paper and a metal box.

Many, many would disagree with you.

My personal approach to magic is to make people think, if only for a split second, they have just seen real magic.

There are different approaches one can take to magic.

1) A display of skill. This has it's place and is fine. LIttle like juggling for me, but each to their own.

2) Comedy magic. Not my thing, but if you are GENIUNELY funny then it can work.

3) A suspension of disbelief.

I go for the third option.

With mentalism you can follow similar approaches

1) A display of skill. You can lie to your audience and claim you actually have these mind reading skills. This is fraud and akin to readings and other such dispicable cons.

2) Comedy mindreading. Again, hard to do unless you are really very funny.

3) A suspension of disbelief. Like Derren does. He says it is all showmanship and misdirection at the start, but his acting and Nyman's sense of theatre make people REALLY suspend their disbelief.

Hence, I think that magic and mentalism are EXACTLY the same.

Your opinion maybe different to mine, and I welcome that. Differences are how we all learn.

A J Irving wrote:I'm sure that there are plenty of 'magic effects' that can be turned into mentalist or at least mind magic effects, all it takes is imagination and a little bit messing around with the presentation. Of course, there are plenty of mentalist effects that can be added to a magicians set list as well, just it would be a lot harder to convince the audience that you have unearthly powers if you've just done a sponge ball routine.

Are you using unseen gimmicks, sleight of hand or props and skill to convince your audience something happened that didn't happen?

That's all that's going on.

Same thing.

Some people that pretend they are really mind readers, palm readers etc to get money from a mark are fraudulant conmen and shouldn't be included in a discussion about entertaining people with mindreading or magic. IMHO.

Replicant wrote:I think it's fair to say that there is a differentiation between mentalism and, say, card magic.

Could you explain what you think that difference is?

I am talking CORE difference, not "one uses cards, one uses billets".

If we're generalising about suspension of disbelief then one could also say that magic and mentalism are the same as any theatrical art such as opera, amateur dramatics or movies. Michael Bay movies demand an awful lot of suspension of disbelief (such as: I can't believe Michael Bay gets to keep on making movies) but it doesn't mean that Transformers has anything in common with a rope trick.

damianjennings wrote:Could you explain what you think that difference is?

I am talking CORE difference, not "one uses cards, one uses billets".

Frankly, I don't have the performing experience to give you a meaningful answer to that. But if you're talking core differences, then you're probably right. I'm a hobbyist whereas yourself and others are working entertainers, so your opinions are vastly more valid than mine will ever be. It's an interesting subject and worthy of a thread of its own, so we don't take this one off-topic any more. (Sorry, LewyD!)

I'm trying to work out how a thread on Dbs living and dead test, can morph into a magician v mentalism debate.

the difference bewteen the two is ....

There isnt one. Well, not to the audience anyway.
As i have said a thousand and One times ( Now)

No matter what We as performers decide to call ourselves, ( with the possible exception of Clown )

The audiences always sit down and watch a magic show, and always go away and tell people how good, or bad that Magician was they saw the other day.

Now, to an extent this is why Derren is as sucessful as he is.

He goes to quite some length to explain that he is not a magician.. but something else.

Its a marketing thing that has clearly stood him in great stead with the lay public.

But to you, me, everybody...( Im sorry. I went all blues brothers for a second ) where was i oh yes, everybody else in our game..
Hes a magician.

damianjennings wrote:

Replicant wrote:I think it's fair to say that there is a differentiation between mentalism and, say, card magic.

Could you explain what you think that difference is?

I am talking CORE difference, not "one uses cards, one uses billets".

The forum has been over and over this in many different threads, which is why we're not keen to start yet again. A good place to start is by reading Craig Browning's essay "What's the Difference?". Unfortunately, this is in the Mentalists Only section.

There's no actual exposure in this essay. Maybe it should come out from behind closed doors and be placed in "Miscellaneous" or "Support and Tips" so more people can read it.