talkmagic.co.uk

Well, I have just discovered the option of requesting a new section. I would not normally be so bold and I am happy for this suggestion from an old man to be removed. But I have increasingly noticed an abscence of the requirement to believe in what you are doing, present well and concentrate on the production of "pure magic". Please forgive me. I am of very advanced years but would suggest that my experience is worth consideration. One or two of the younger members have, I believe, recognised this and I thank them sincerely. It seems to me that most come here to learn "secrets". What about the secret of convincing your audience/onlookers that a miracle is about to be performed? Or that there is real magic?

I believe I can help but only offer that help and experience to those that really show the potential to learn. Perhaps another restricted section? I don't know ... it is for the moderators to decide. I offer, while I can, only my assistance if it is required. Much love. Kryzal x

Well, as one old fart speaking to another I can only say, don't hold your breath on this. In fact, you may want to duck and cover in that so many tend to be of the mind set that "it's just tricks" and why would anyone wish to make it real or encourage anyone else to believe it's real or possible

I've had my hind-side handed to me more than a few times by the plethora of intellects you'll encounter on most any forum. Fortunately, there are those few shining lights that make it all worth it... most of the time... but I'm beginning to wonder

There's an old saying about perils and swine that may well ring true...

Thats a good idea Kryzal. The idea of believing in ones miracles, and transmitting this to the audience is an interesting one. The great Tommy Wonder has also spoken about this. I for one would be very interested in a section here which tackled such subjects. Craig i wouldnt say being an ''old fart'' as you put it is a bad thing, in fact i would say the opposite is true. In my experience i have found the older magicians tend to really know their stuff, and are very much worth listening to. Take Harry Lorrayne for example, he gets all the young magicians showing him the latest neat move or a startling transformation (which he does enjoy watching), then he will show them something from his books that he thought of before most of them were even born, and it simply blows them away. jim

jim ferguson wrote:Thats a good idea Kryzal. The idea of believing in ones miracles, and transmitting this to the audience is an interesting one. The great Tommy Wonder has also spoken about this. I for one would be very interested in a section here which tackled such subjects. Craig i wouldnt say being an ''old fart'' as you put it is a bad thing, in fact i would say the opposite is true. In my experience i have found the older magicians tend to really know their stuff, and are very much worth listening to. Take Harry Lorrayne for example, he gets all the young magicians showing him the latest neat move or a startling transformation (which he does enjoy watching), then he will show them something from his books that he thought of before most of them were even born, and it simply blows them away. jim

I've been in this biz for over 40 years and rubbed elbows with many an ancient soul including Vernon, Johnny Platt and far too many others to name, so I know what you're saying. I've also become rather crass given the lack of respect and even the lack of desire that's been expressed by many of the younger generation when it comes to creating enchantment. Then again it seems that most who call themselves a "Magician" aren't interested in learning how to create magick, they just want to learn another card trick It's a reality that I've seen play out far too many times and it's seriously left a sour and bitter taste in my palate

Most just want to look like good card mechanics and don't want to put in the time or thought to try to make it look like something different. Which is why a lot of magicians tend to find it hard to get work and well to me, they all end up looking like used car salesmen and looking exactly the same. Funny enough I know a few older magicians who have said that people NEVER forget when a card changes to their card in their hand or when sponges appear in their hand. They seem to think it's the most powerful effect of all time. Which it most likely isn't and to me seems more like filler.

Craig Browning wrote: In fact, you may want to duck and cover in that so many tend to be of the mind set that "it's just tricks" and why would anyone wish to make it real or encourage anyone else to believe it's real or possible

And how would you answer that question?

JakeThePerformer wrote:

Craig Browning wrote: In fact, you may want to duck and cover in that so many tend to be of the mind set that "it's just tricks" and why would anyone wish to make it real or encourage anyone else to believe it's real or possible

And how would you answer that question?

Even Doug Henning sought to enchant his audience by inviting them to let go of their disbelief and take a magickle journey with him. Copperfield sought (initially) to capture the romance of theater and Hollywood classic films so as to accomplish the very same thing.

Weaving a web of intrigue is our job whether you're doing traditional magic, escapes or mentalism. People won't buy into an escape act unless there exists a very real potential for injury or worse, that is why the sub-trunk or even the Water Cell are no longer considered "escapes" but rather Illusions -- people know they are gimmicked devices in which only limited risks exist (but I can assure you, being in a water cell will make you think otherwise). The true escape artist works with very real restraints in today's world. They may have tricks of the trade for getting free and even a gimmick or two, but the fear and the danger host a very real, almost tactile presence otherwise the public will just shrug their shoulders and write it off as some magic bum trying to show off... sadly, that is how a good 90% of such things comes off.

Luring your audience into the story, be it a Hippity Hop Rabbit routine or as part of a Seance, is what evokes their participation in what we do and invokes their imagination, allowing them to escape from the realities of daily life. In my book this isn't just an expression of solid showmanship, it's true power... it's MAGICK!

Belief can be generated around something as simple and corny as the Sponge Balls or as elegant and pretty as the classic Dove & Card manipulation act. It is created through our demeanor, body language, patter, charm and confidence.

Kirkham told me long, long ago that there are three key areas of study most every magician fails to invest in; The Art of Storytelling, Pantomime, and Presence. Where the first MIGHT seem self-explanatory, the majority of us miss the point. Where as anyone can vocalize a tale very few cultivate the ability to use their words & voice in making that story come to life. Pantomime/Body Language is part of this same tool as it likewise belongs to the issue of "Presence" -- our ability to convey or imply things by knowing how to use our physical essence.

Think about it... look at the mileage Max Maven gets from a raised eyebrow or Richard Ross got with a simple smile and boyish charm. Every major player has a set of "quirks" that are actually deliberate cues to the public so as to elicit the types of reactions they are after... even when it comes to applause and how you hold your hands (a secret played well by the great Dante).

There is a very well known Las Vegas based card mechanic that I got to know somewhat well when I lived there. Alan was an artist when it came to his skill but a terrible showman... until he started seeking out the coaching and direction he needed; he stopped listening to his own head and started listening and studying those that he admired who had achieved great things. This is why he's become one of the more noted players in our world these days. It was a journey however, that took him nearly a full decade to complete.

Alan learned how to create magick and that is something that goes well beyond knowing how to do the mechanics behind a trick. It's just as I point out to those asking me to teach them how to do Readings; Anyone can buy the books and learn from wrote, it's just a memorization process along side specific formulas that lend to you "translations". However, those that learn to read that language -- the language of the oracle being used -- become a true storyteller and create a sense of intrigue that elicits more and more cooperation from the sitter. Secondly, the more adepts Reader's learn to set aside the book knowledge and depend more and more on their gut -- how they feel and how to couple this with the intellectual and storytelling elements so as to convey a solid and empowering message to the client. It's the very same thing we do when executing a trick.

One of my favorite hand props is the Vanishing Bird Cage made famous by the Blackstones. Presenting it as they both did was a marvelous and impossible thing that was quite fun. But then I saw Billy McComb do the same bit at the Magic Castle one evening, delivering a presentation that was so beautiful and enchanting that it would make you shed tears. Same device but two different approaches. Both styles created a magickle impression but one was a matter of surprise while the other invoked awe and wonder. I'd have to say that such emotional reactions are what we are actually striving to know; the public's response being our elixir. Learning however, that it's not the trick you've chosen but how you present it... that's something that can't be discovered until you get serious about being a showman first and the magician second.

Craig, you have mentioned MANY times before the idea that magic and mentalism should not be mixed.

Now, In Copperfield's first big tv special, there was an Orson Wells bit, which I believe was completely Orson's presentation. It was a very dramatically presented book test. If you haven't seen it, look it up. Orson had said in an interview a while before that about how much mind readers lie.

Now, he did seem to support the idea that it was real throughout that entire presentation. But outside he did not. This could have been because by the time of the presentation, he had changed his mind, but I don't think he did.

Now, Orson may be more afraid of lying this way than he needs to be, simply because of the time he scared everyone half to death.


Do you believe one can present it as genuine, but outside of presentation say it is not? Almost like an actor if you will.

He certainly presents it in a proper dramatic way. It was certainly not as just another trick. Do you have a problem with this type of performing?

Where does one draw the line? And why?



-Ben

All entertainment I mean ALL entertainment is a suspension of disbelief.

Be it you are lost in the music, involved with the main character of a book/movie or even witnessing the impossible.

Some people will get this, some of these people will not. Of those that do get it 1 percent of 1 percent will get fame for it.

Many more will be deserving of such fame but never see it.

However how those people get engrossed changes over time. Those performers that reinvent themselves maintain popularity can grab that hook. Some even have a timeless quality so they don't have to change.

There are some that want to believe in magic many more that do not. I enjoy being told I am about to be fooled and then promptly get fooled.

I think the discussion here between those that learned the old ways and trying to allow people to believe and the new way of those proving humanities hubris the goal is still one and the same.

However the vast majority of people probably don't see the subtlety or have different goals such as sharing what they love about magic and hoping to find souls that appreciate it the way they do.

I just don't think you can fault one for the other or think anyone path is more misguided than the other.

This is a great idea for a new section I think. There is alot a young performer like myself can learn from people that have been doing it for a long time, especially in this area of really making the magic. The technical side you can pick up and read, but the performance, the belief around the illusions you are creating, is something that is not as easy to learn.

Wherever I can I try to make my specs believe in what they are seeing. When I perform something, I havent just switched the ace, it has really vanished. Or the four kings really do stick together in a deck etc etc.

Its the hardest part of the whole art to learn, creating the real magic. As a relative newcomer to magic, I would be greatly interested in such a section on the site and what more experienced folks on here would have to contribute.

JakeThePerformer wrote:Craig, you have mentioned MANY times before the idea that magic and mentalism should not be mixed.

Now, In Copperfield's first big tv special, there was an Orson Wells bit, which I believe was completely Orson's presentation. It was a very dramatically presented book test. If you haven't seen it, look it up. Orson had said in an interview a while before that about how much mind readers lie.

Actually that wasn't David's first special and too, it was shot well after Orson had passed away. Memory serving me right this was a Don Wayne idea but I'm not aware of all the particulars around it. But, like Don's Dream Vision, this is an example of Mental Magic NOT Mentalism. Remember, the psychology around what is being done and in both instances you are looking at something the public will readily view as being trickery... albeit, clever trickery. David never attempts to present it as being anything other nor has he ever sought to call himself a "Mentalist"... unlike those that think using a Motorcycle production with a psychic theme is "mentalism"

Now, he did seem to support the idea that it was real throughout that entire presentation. But outside he did not. This could have been because by the time of the presentation, he had changed his mind, but I don't think he did.

Again, David never claims to be a mentalist he's always called himself an Illusionist and/or Showman... Huge Difference here.

Now, Orson may be more afraid of lying this way than he needs to be, simply because of the time he scared everyone half to death.

Trust me, Mr. Wells has no problem lying his butt off (and that's a very big butt). Orson actually saw himself as some kind of grand occult master for many long years, not just a magician or mentalist and though he was a sound showman, he ultimately became a parody of himself. Being aware of that fact he elected to use it as an asset and deliberately began doing things quite tongue-in-cheek exaggerating his persona, as it were.

Do you believe one can present it as genuine, but outside of presentation say it is not? Almost like an actor if you will.

He certainly presents it in a proper dramatic way. It was certainly not as just another trick. Do you have a problem with this type of performing?

Where does one draw the line? And why?

-Ben

Again, David presents the material exactly as a magician who slots a bit of mental magic into his normal show. This is very common and as I've said many times, I have absolutely no problem with this so long as the material presented isn't some "high end" piece that was deliberately developed for the purer form of Psi demonstration. My prime example is the idiot that featured MOAB in her kiddie birthday party shows while in full clown (white face) costume. But when you get admitted magicians such as Angel, deliberately stealing from the Psi side of the fence and exploiting it as part of his image, we find an act of total disrespect and little regard for those that are full-time Mentalist.

Greg Arce has a story that goes along the following lines... The magician will come to watch a mentalist work and see a bit that impresses him. His first thoughts are "That's cool, I wonder how I can put that into my show?" On the other hand you will not find a serious mentalist attending a Magic show trying to figure out how to add Assembling Aces or a Sub Trunk to their act...

Another thing I've stated repeatedly Ben, is that Mental Magic is far more commercial than pure Mentalism. The majority of your top end draws who use the theme of Mentalism are, by their own confession, magicians that do psychic-styled material. Larry Becker laughs all the way to the bank on that fact but yet, he's developed some rather outstanding and very entertaining bits of material like Casino Royale, not to mention some of the things he and Lee Earle have developed in tandem.

The proper use of Mental Magic will deliver solid Production Value to both, a pure Mentalism program or a stock magic show. It's purpose is to break up the "tension" of things and "shift gears" so to speak. Too, as my buddy Jon Stetson will tell you, using a stock bit of hard hitting Mental Magic, such as Final Flash Back is an excellent encore piece because it brings in tons of audience participation with a very unusual climax... I've used the TOD many times as an encore piece and as you know, I loathe playing cards, especially in connection to Mentalism. Sometimes however, it is exactly what fits.

Your Argument over presenting something that creates realism during the process but not after is a common one shared by skeptics. Banachek, Rick Maue and others will emphasize the idea of invoking belief during the show itself but once that's been done you're off duty and can leave your persona in the hamper with all your other laundry. Though I'm over simplifying their philosophy I am revealing the gist of it. HOWEVER, there is much more to it and that's where things become a balancing act (with the exception of Mr. Maue in this case... he don't care ); Banachek will retain a high level of his character when in public and post show. He understands that this is part of marketing and public relations given what he's known for and specializes in. On the other hand, Rick does not consider himself a "Mentalist" but rather, a Bizarrists who just happens to use a great deal of mentalism; Bizarre Magick being one area where the combination of Mentalism and aspects of Traditional Magic actually work and do not detract from one another, nor generate the sense of insult previously noted. This is mainly due to the fact that Bizarre Magick tends to lean towards things occult & esoteric -- dark and sometimes of the macabre. Such association coupled with the storyteller craft of weaving a spell of sorts that lull the audience into a dark fantasy, is very similar to how the Mentalist invokes belief; it was in fact borrowed from Old School Psychic performance method even though some of Bizarre Magick can be down right corny... again, it's deliberate but we needn't go there.

What I find more than not, is that those seeking to cling to the idea you've presented want their cake and eat it too; they generally lack the discipline to stick with one thing and learn to do it well and thus, they attempt to do it all and do it all at a mediocre level and without, as this thread's theme suggests, MAGICK! Just an array of tricks that the "performer" believes to be "cool" but that he/she still presents as nothing more than a trick... an act of showing off and ego-gratification.

If you want that "Wow" factor, the gasps, the shock, and reactions of amazement YOU MUST create wonder and the only way you do that is by focusing on each routine and all those little points already mentioned here and in the various bits of correspondence you and I have already had. There are no short cuts, no exceptions; you have to focus and be willing to actually apply yourself and learn everything that works with that effect in order to "sell" it. That includes clarification as to what you are and holding to it no matter how tempted you might be to step outside that sphere.

I would think that anyone seeking to even mimic one of the TV personalities out there that so many idolize, would want to do everything they can in order to be as good if not better. Yet, we do not see many that are willing to actually block out their material, develop a script, get coaching as well as experience in those areas that will improve their showmanship and ability to hold character. In other words, less than 15% of those involved with magic are willing to adopt the idea of "being the actor" and thus, learning to actually be just that vs. someone that does tricks.

Take a look at how vested actors like Johnny Depp, Heath Leger and Brad Pit get as they move into a film role. Many of the greatest acting legends literally become that entity for the entire duration of the filming. I remember seeing Christopher Loyd coming home in full make-up when he was shooting the Adam's Family (I was house sitting about six houses down from his house at the time). This is what these people find to be requisite for doing their job right, which is in line with the full time Psychic Entertainer (Old School) and being that entity 24/7 vs. the part-timer, such as you are speaking...

...at least that's how things were taught to me and how I try to live. When I was doing the illusion show I was a completely different person at multiple levels because that's who I was during that stage of my life.

I have returned from my travels and am delighted to have helped stimulate a discussion which seems to favour and acknowledge the wisdom of believing in what you do rather than just performing another trick. It would be wrong to assume that younger students are all of the mind that performance is secondary. Young Matthius is clearly an exception and, in my experienced view, has the correct frame of mind to not fear being "different" and therefore more likely to be successful.

For all my life (and it has indeed been many, many years!) I have chosen to learn a much as possible and then believe in what I do. I have learned from the great and the good - but equally learned valuable lessons from the not so great and rather poor. My first teacher stressed to me that it is very important to watch a bad performer once in a while.

In my youth, which is now so many decades ago, I was honoured to be asked to perform as Shakespeare's Richard III. I could do it again tomorrow for I did not perform as Richard III, I became Richard III. It was a diversion for me but I knew that to make the audience believe in me, I had to believe.

Much has been said here, and more eloquently than I could say it. I thank you all for responding to an aged old wizard for that is what I have become.

I would make a final point. I visited a place a few months ago on the advice of a stranger. He told me I would walk into water and not realise it. Common sense tells me it is not possible but I know ... I did just that.

I am always happy to help those that wish to learn. My time is nearly done so why would I not? I hope that there is a place to discuss the true meaning of "enchantment". What a world it would be without that word!

Much love. Kryzal x

I fear that all of these posts are so gladly ignoring what this all really comes down to.
People are not thinking this way because they want to be NEW or fit in, or because they don't have enough experience, or because they can't name off numerous big shot names they have met and talked with. It is not because it is too difficult.
The concern is the fact that it is based on a major LIE.

If you tell a person you can really read their mind, or really talk to spirits when you can't, and charge them money for it, it is fraud. If you can convince me differently then you could argue your point. But otherwise, telling that some famous man who performed in the 1920's claimed to do such and such will not sway many of our opinions on the matter.

I think its not about saying "I have supernatural powers!" when you really don't. Its about creating that idea, that feeling, by what you do and generating that in the audiences eyes. If you have the gift of being able to do that, create that magic for a spectator, you never have to say anything of the sort, people will say it for you.

In the end a magician isn't trying to scam someone out of money (hopefully), they are trying to entertain. Mind reading and similar techniques walk a much finer line between entertainment and charlatanism, but I would hesitate to call most mind readers a fraud unless there were some definate exploitation to it, which 99% of the people performing such things are innocent of I think. Its not making money off of a false premise, people pay a magician to entertain them. Making them feel real magic can only add to that, right?

I think this would be a great idea as I am new to magic and although I am learning, having somewhere to seek advice without ridicule or without certain people passing judgement on you for asking for help which I have encountered a few times. A Section where people can learn about presentation and not the secrets or reveals of any trick but seek assistance on certain effects they maybe working on at the time.

TLS