talkmagic.co.uk

If you are putting method out there where anyone can get their hands on it you are exposing magic. Why not make it downloadable content so if somebody orders something they also get a free magic tutorial. If you are really good at teaching why not offer online video conferencing to your customers, if they buy something and are having difficulty with it you can give them a quick demo over skype or something to that effect. (yes I see the headache with that already) Is your teaching going to be better then Mark Wilson? Bill Tarr? George Schindler? they all have wonderful beginner books. If you could offer live courses then you are onto something. Anything else and you may be just inventing the wheel. Is your magic lessons really for the benifit of your customers or to satisfy your own need to perform. You are working on a business I'm not judging or telling you what to do or trying to drive you one way or another, I'm just suggesting you look at all the issues.

Exposure has nothing to do with cost. I imagine the point the other person was trying to make is that somebody who is paying for the secret is probably somebody that really wants to venture into magic. Somebody who is less liable to understand and value what they are learning. It is not the cost it is the willingness to pay the cost in whatever form.

I hope you understand what I am trying to say and not taking it the wrong way.

Best of luck.
B

There is no _requirement_ for a teaching qualification, but that doesn't mean it's not good to have one. There are scads of people in magic who think they can teach simply because they can do something. Many of them are very wrong.

There's a lot more to teaching than just showing someone how something is done. There's lesson planning, the ability to analyse and break down a sleight so it can be taught in a structured manner, the communication skills to impart this information (which are a bunch different from performing skills) and the overall demeanour to put it all together.

It's great that you perform every day - having your own venue is an enviable place to be. I'm not convinced, however, that this makes for a good teacher. I know many magicians who have been performing full time for decades that couldn't explain anything (and I'm not sure this is off topic, either).

In the interests of full disclosure, I have around 25 years of teaching experience and three separate qualifications. I've been teaching magic for seven years, performing for 24 years, the last 18 professionally. I currently write a tutorial column for MUM magazine. Teaching is something I'm somewhat passionate about, which is why I raised the points I did. Don't take it personally.

Take care, Ian

excellent points Mr. Kendall.


www.bmat10.wordpress.com

With regards to your post Ian, I haven't taken anything personally from your comments as I think your concerns are very valid and I aggree with everything you said.

Since my last post, I have spoken with several magicians about this topic and one thing arose during conversation yesterday that I had not previously considered. This being that it would be logical to assume that only people who are genuinely interested in learning magic will want to sift through a website with tutorials on card sleights. People interested purely in exposure are likely to want to know how a particular trick is done at that instant and if they don't find the secret within a minute or so through a google search, they are likely to move on. Exposure seekers will likely lose interest when they find that learning card magic requires concentration, effort, time and countless hours of practice.

bmat wrote:

Is your teaching going to be better then Mark Wilson? Bill Tarr? George Schindler? they all have wonderful beginner books. If you could offer live courses then you are onto something. Anything else and you may be just inventing the wheel.

I will certainly do my best to teach as best as I can, I would never claim to be better than anyone else because this is very subjective and personal opinion comes into play. I just have to concentrate on making sure that any tutorials I create are the best that I can make.

My main worry is not about my ability to teach but about being understood by an international audience. I have a strong Scottish accent and use Scottish dialect and slang in everyday life. When recording video tutorials, I have to talk in a way that I find very unnatural and have to speak slowly and deliberately to make sure that people understand me. I've actually found this quite difficult and have had to film many tutorials over and over after catching myself either speaking too quickly or using Scottish phrases or dialect that people are unlikely to understand. I often do this without realising that I've done it, however, the benefit of having an online course is that I was able to test parts of my course by sending them to a few magicians who live outwith Scotland to get feedback. What I have been told so far though suggests that perhaps I am just being a little too paranoid in that area.

With regards to doing a live course course via skype or similar, I simply don't have enough free time to be able to offer this. On top of that, it would restrict the number of people I can sell my course to. Much the same benefits as one on one teaching can be achieved through pre-recorded video content with well-written accompanying text and easy to understand, relevant illustrations. This is the route that I am following at the moment.

One thing I have considered though was a live "question and answer" sessions at predetermined times. Essentially it would work were I distribute live video and sound via streaming video on my web page have a text based chat system where people can ask me questions. That way, I dont have to give up more than an hour of my time and can effectively help multiple learners at once.

Lastly, at the time of writing, all products on my site have been sent to me by fellow magicians. Since day one, I have allowed any magician to contribute products for a 50:50 split of the profits. Whilst, the quality of teaching on these magic products is outwith my control, the standard of the contributions has been very high so far. If anyone wants to know more about that, they can more information here: http://www.road2magic.com/road2magic-information/our-services-for-magicians

In taking another look at this thread I've had a couple of interesting points kind of jump out at me, one being the money issue. Where "exchange" should exist (it's what keeps the universe moving) said exchange does not always have to be monetary; "barter" of sorts, is the most common. Students in times not so long past, basically worked for "the master" in order to slowly learn and EARN access to this and that secret. The Great Richiardi literally taught each member of his crew ONLY what they needed to know about each routine... he was probably the last of his kind in that today's average stage hand seems to be "in on it"... at least to some degree.

I've been fortunate to have several mentors over the years, most of whom I actually had to work for and with in order to learn. Too, once these men gave me certain tid-bits of knowledge I would be challenged to use that information in a way that forced me to "create" rather than mimic; to step beyond the original routine course of presentation and make the material "My Own"... in other words, the teaching method was based on the challenge and not just showing you how to do a pass or the subtleties of billiard ball control, etc. Even learning some of the less mechanical secrets around grand illusion served as small keys that forced one to THINK...all of which is, at least in my experience, the difference between teaching someone and simply revealing how this or that is done.

Anyone can learn the mechanics of a trick that does not mean that they "know" how to "do it", they just know of a method.

At the risk of ridicule and being labeled an "exposer" I'm going to give you an example based on one single grand illusion -- the Sawing in Half.

How Does it Work?

Granted, it depends on which of the many versions you're looking at using; the Spectator Bow Saw or Jigg Saw routines obviously aren't the same as a Thin Model Sawing or even the Thurston and Sielbit cabinets... then we get into some of the more "cutting edge" designs that are now popular, delivering a heightened sense of impossibility. But let's roll the clock back and look at one of the antiques -- the Thurston Sawing, which is probably one of the most famous versions to pre-date the Thin Model.

So, How Does it Work?

99.9% of all human beings will tell you that the girl somehow curls up in the upper portion of the cabinet whilst a second girl pokes her feet out at the other end... 99.9% of these folks would likewise be wrong.



Hate to break it to you guys, but the Thurston cabinet NEVER used two girls, mirrors or fake body parts

For as big and clunky as the thing seems it's actually quite small and tight. The main girl who does do the famous curl would not be able to fit if it weren't for certain subtle adjustments made inside the box to accommodate her. The fact that this little tid-bit along with the above fact, have not been made readily accessible sustains that part of the magic world in which the "real" secrets are preserved... my point being that though these exposure sites, etc. might tip a method they cannot possibly reveal every little nuance tied to an effect, 99% of which comes from our role as an ACTOR, which is also where that "challenge" point comes into play I mentioned above... Kirkham used to make me come up with three or four different ways of presenting the same exact effect. Not to be mean or overly critical of what I'd previously developed, but to help me LEARN the effect and how to best present it, pulling every little applause cue you can get from that routine.

This is where most of the know-it-alls fall flat. They know the basics but not the "how". You will see a lot of this happen in the magic world when those that come into a win-fall and go out to buy a John Gaughan magic kit. They drop a couple hundred thousand dollars on all the nifty neat boxes but they haven't a clue as to how to present them... trust me, in the day I bought up shows like this for pennies on the dollar, generally in less than 5 years from the initial purchase.

A "Teacher" will challenge you and push you much in the way a good stage director or acting coach will do. They might seem a drill Sargent at times but their goal is always the same as your own -- to make you the best you can be and prepare you by creating habits that will affect you and your work in a positive way when they are no longer there to serve as your sounding board.

A Quick Word on Exposure However... you would be hard pressed to not find a single major name of magic history who hasn't been guilty of exposing magic secrets, even some of the more "well-guarded" secrets like the Professor's Nightmare, Cups & Balls, the Center Tear, etc. all of which have been tipped on the back of cereal boxes, as part of a Cracker Jack give away, in the free booklets given to kids during their matinee shows (101 Tricks You Can Do being one of the most popular such premiums), the Blackstone/Dante, Will Rock and Mandrake comic book series... even the Boy Scout manual has tipped the workings of small and large magic through the course of the mid and late 20th century. The "issue" around exposure and "intellectual property" starting in the 50's when a certain Mr. Harbin was sold the second version of the Abbott-Kirkham Spectator Sawing and later marketed it (after a few minor adjustments) as his own. Then came the famed (almost court case) battle between Kirkham and Mark Wilson based on who had the legal right to do certain Thurston-Sielbit effects on television.

This was probably one of the first such debates to be set in our world. But it was the famed Zig Zag situation in which prop maker Jim Sommers (one of the lead techs to the Alakazam show) presented the famed effect at the Hollywood Roosevelt Hotel and "friends" of Mr. Harbin took offense... this was the real start to what we have today when it comes to the anal-retentive nit-picking as to what is what and which belongs to whom, etc. Jim Stinemeyer, John Gaughan, Bill Smith and about four other primary players in the 1980s being the political force that made such things an issue followed by Hal Marquat (the original) and Valentino's "Masked Magician" character.

If it weren't for the kind of "limited" exposure that went on in the early days, magic probably would have died out and few of us today would even have a remote interest in it. Even the arrogant little twits on YouTube that tip the works on relatively new material, are actually inspiring more people when it comes to learning and getting involved with magic at the positive level, than not.

So when you see one of these fools tipping the workings understand that it will only "hurt you" if you let it... if you don't embrace the challenge they've given to you to do it better, do it different and do it in a way that is "yours" rather than a clone style presentation that simply parrots what everyone else is doing or worse, what some Tv Face has done.

You've got your own Pub!

Could you not host some magic events?

That could be fun. Many people have internet access. Not so many publicly accessible facilities!

Just a thought.

Kevin

Yeah, I have the lease until March 1st 2010. I have the option to renew or buy the building, but I don't think that I will be doing so.

I have always wanted to have magic events here, but the money side of things prevents me from paying for entertainment. The pub is a small one and just doesn't make enough money to justify paying the fees that performers charge. I have had one magician friend of mine who came over and did a show for a few beers though. It makes a refreshing change to see someone else doing magic in my pub. And whilst I still have it, any magicians wish to come over for a drink and a magic related chat, feel free to drop me an email. I am based just outside Stirling in Scotland.

It has to be said though that, performing for a crowd of semi-drunk Scottish hecklers must be the best practice that any close up magician can get!

I've yet to see any magic book or dvd that can prepare someone for that!

Incredible, are you actually giving away Expert At The Card Table and Expert Coin Magic?

Perhaps it is time for me to back away from Talkmagic for awhile if this is what its come to.

Best of luck.

Erdnase has been able free for a long while.

bmat wrote:Perhaps it is time for me to back away from Talkmagic for awhile if this is what its come to.

This is nothing to do with us but just to make sure eveyone understands, TM neither condones nor supports exposure or doubtful activities of any kind. Entrepreneurs will decide what they think is acceptable so it's up to the customers to make their feelings known if they disapprove.

If you want to know where the line is, offering Bobo and Erdnase free under the heading 'Free Magic Tricks' is crossing it! Even if both books are strictly speaking, Public Domain offering the out in this way for anyone is nothing more than a very poorly veiled attempt to get people buying from your site. You're not even bothering make your own graphic for the books, just sticking your logo on top of Dover's cover (incidently it might be interesting to see what their copyright people have to say about that).

I'm suprised that more people haven't spoken up about this.

I presumed, perhaps incorrectly, that since the books are out of copyright, the covers were therefore out of copyright too. If this is not the case, I will change the cover images as soon as possible.

I do offer Bobo and Erdnase for free because they are both public domain but also because mainly because they would only be of interest to the serious learner. It is my opinion, if you have no interest in learning magic and are only after magic exposure, you are not going to want to spend countless hours sifting through Erdnase or Bobo. Too much effort is involved when YouTube is only a few mouse clicks away.

Mandrake said:

Entrepreneurs will decide what they think is acceptable so it's up to the customers to make their feelings known if they disapprove.

I do admit that I am still struggling to find moral grounds on which to stand on in this area. It seems that everyone I talk to has a differing opinion on this. I have also found that there is a huge abundance of hypocrisy in these areas too. Many magicians often have strong opinions against spotty teenagers exposing secrets on YouTube but yet do the same thing in order to promote a book or DVD of theirs.

One magician, only a few hours ago, said to me that I should never put out a tutorial for a magic trick or sleight that I didn’t invent. If all magicians were to stop selling books and DVDs containing sleights/tricks that they did not invent, the whole magic industry would cease to exist overnight.

Lastly, and most importantly, I think my heart is in the right place when it comes to what I am doing with this project. Magic changed my life and I'm sure it benefited all those who are reading this. If I can pass that experience on to someone else and earn a living doing so, I would consider that a perfect job. Perhaps it's not possible to please everybody, regardless of how I progress with this one though.

I do admit that I am still struggling to find moral grounds on which to stand on in this area.

If you are having this difficulty it is probably because you know (subconsciously) that you are betraying "the code" not to mention magic as a whole.

If you want to tip this material, apply to take over the copyright and renew it as a publisher (I'm actually surprised this isn't already something in place... I'd check with Minch and some of those involved with collecting, digitizing and preserving magic literature).

Bottom line, IT'S NOT YOUR INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY!

Morally, ethically, et al, you have NO RIGHT to do with that or any material that you had no direct involvement with, as you wish... even though it might be viewed as "Legal"... there's a huge difference between what's legal and what's right.

Sadly, money grabbers and opportunists don't seem to give a rat's patutti as to what's right; they will push the proverbial envelope in order to sate what their ego wants to do rather than what their soul is trying to reveal to them as being WRONG.... that is, if they haven't sold that soul as of yet. Given your sense of dichotomy I'm betting yours' is hanging by a thread...

What do you think about Genii magazine distributing a free e-version of Expert At The Card Table then?

They have absolutely no moral or ethical right to, yet nobody was up in arms about that.

This is a highly useful and progressive topic, that can only lend good to the magical community.



**feels proud to have used sarcasm**