talkmagic.co.uk

Lady of Mystery wrote:I've never really understood what the fuss is about with these shows. The only people I know who have even heard of the Masked Magician for example are other magicians, none of my non-magic friends have ever seen any of his shows or if they have they don't remember them. Most people just don't have the interest to sit through one of these and if they do they'll never remember how things are done. I don't think they're something that we really need to be all that much.

Agreed 100% Threads like these do more damage by drawing attention to shows bought as cheap filler and transmitted when things are quiet. Again, it's the Streisand Effect.

Oh, and hearty congratulations, by the way, Becky. I'm thrilled to little mint balls for you. Big hugs.

TonyB wrote:What's the problem with exposure? It has never done us any harm in the past, and will not do us any harm now. Everyone knows how to tell a joke. It doesn't stop them listening to comedians.

Totally disagree.

There is no secret in a joke.

Exposure as done plenty of harm to many workers.

I know traditional magicians and illusionists who have lost thousands of pounds because they have had to remove large expensive props from the their act.

Tomo wrote:Oh, and hearty congratulations, by the way, Becky. I'm thrilled to little mint balls for you. Big hugs.

Thanks, Tomo!!!! I'm bouncing around on Cloud 9 today.

Paul Stockman wrote:

TonyB wrote:What's the problem with exposure? It has never done us any harm in the past, and will not do us any harm now. Everyone knows how to tell a joke. It doesn't stop them listening to comedians.

Totally disagree.

There is no secret in a joke.

Exposure as done plenty of harm to many workers.

I know traditional magicians and illusionists who have lost thousands of pounds because they have had to remove large expensive props from the their act.

I don't like exposure, it goes against every grain in my being. With that said history has shown that exposure really doesn't hurt magic as a whole. Exposure as been around as long as magic yet the lay people really don't have much of a clue, most have not seen magic performed and fewer know how its done.

If you, or somebody you know is loosing income due to exposure then I'd have to suggest that they learn how to become better entertainers. It is amazing how all the trickery stuff goes out the window when the audience is entertained.

bmat wrote:

Paul Stockman wrote:

TonyB wrote:What's the problem with exposure? It has never done us any harm in the past, and will not do us any harm now. Everyone knows how to tell a joke. It doesn't stop them listening to comedians.

Totally disagree.

There is no secret in a joke.

Exposure as done plenty of harm to many workers.

I know traditional magicians and illusionists who have lost thousands of pounds because they have had to remove large expensive props from the their act.

I don't like exposure, it goes against every grain in my being. With that said history has shown that exposure really doesn't hurt magic as a whole. Exposure as been around as long as magic yet the lay people really don't have much of a clue, most have not seen magic performed and fewer know how its done.

If you, or somebody you know is loosing income due to exposure then I'd have to suggest that they learn how to become better entertainers. It is amazing how all the trickery stuff goes out the window when the audience is entertained.

Yes ofcourse, because history always repeats itself and nothing ever changes, ever. Its not as if we have new technologies or new ways of communication to adapt to and learn to overcome. Its not like we need to learn to guard our secrets properly like... I dunno... withholding tv rights on products, or making secracy agreements.

Nope, the world is exactly the same as it ever was.


/end sarcasm

The real problem is that mentalism is not the same as magic. Before I became a mentalist (meaning I printed a certificate for myself), I felt sure that all or most of Derren Brown's and other mentalists' effects are pure psychology tricks.

Once you uncover the fact that mentalism involved sleights of hand, it's going to be remove much of the feeling of mystery, in my view. The trick of 'reading a word from your mind' will become as cliche' as 'pick a card, any card'.

Then again, as people keep saying, it's all about the performer. Evolution will have to happen, and it will be interesting to see where it takes the field.

Eshly, I am not saying that nothing changes. I'm saying you can learn some really simple, yet valuable lessons from history. How many times has the TT been exposed in magic? How many beginner kits have TTs, how many novelty stores? how many performers and exposure's have been done on the TT. There are documentary's about psychic surgery which expose the TT. Yet I can put a silver one on my thumb perform the effect fool the heck out of everyone, show them all how its done as a 'joke' and then do the effect again still fool them all. It is the beauty of magic. It is what seasoned performers are trying to say when we try to explain its not about the method. You do not ever perform method! You don't perform a force, you perform an effect that incorperates a force. The spectator should be concentrating on the effect not the force and if that is the case then it doesn't matter how the force is accomplished, (referring to an earlier topic of yours). If the audience does suspect something then you, the magician have not done your job correctly.

After the linking Rings (or as I like to call it, the worlds most boring effect) were exposed, you know what professionals did? Nothing! They just kept on going fooling, entertaining and providing that sense of wonder to the audience. A few capitalized on the event. They showed the audience the gimmicked ring showing the audience how the masked magician accomplished the effect. But a real magician doesn't do that, (and then the magician would toss the gimmicked ring off to the side) and continue with the effect. The spectators never even questioned that there might be another gimmick. I've seen it done!

So you can be sarcastic. I really don't care, I love sarcasm, but at least try to see things from a different perspective. At least try to learn lessons from people who have actually been out there and have made a living at it.


As far as mentalism goes its the very same thing. If you can convince your audience you are a mentalist then you don't need to worry about exposure. After all they are the fakes, you are the real deal. those who want to believe are always going to be believe, those who don't are not. At least however, they may enjoy your show.

And in the end, its only the magicians that really care how its done.

You, Bmat, are right about MAGIC evolving like that.
You are wrong about Mentalism.


Let me show you why:

Uri Geller claimed to be psychic, even he now says that he isn't, and prefers to term "mistifyer". The reason for this was exposure, people didn't know exactly HOW he was doing all of his slight of hand techniques, but they knew it was not psychic, and so he couldn't claim that anymore.

Likewise, if people know that you COULD be using trickery to read their billet, and not 'body language' or some other story, then itr ruins it. Mentalism CANNOT adapt that.


Psychics are dead. There is a reason Derren Brown regularly says he is NOT psychic, because it makes him more popular. If people knew he was infact faking his abilities, then he would not be able to perform at all.


Once the story of 'Its body language', or 'intuition' is gone, what else is there? There is NO other explanation we have, and so nothing to entertain with, just a series of tricks.

Eshly wrote:

Once the story of 'Its body language', or 'intuition' is gone, what else is there? There is NO other explanation we have, and so nothing to entertain with, just a series of tricks.

..and I think that just shows an amazing lack of imagination and creativity on your part Eshly.

Paul Stockman wrote:

TonyB wrote:What's the problem with exposure? It has never done us any harm in the past, and will not do us any harm now. Everyone knows how to tell a joke. It doesn't stop them listening to comedians.

Totally disagree.

There is no secret in a joke.

Exposure as done plenty of harm to many workers.

I know traditional magicians and illusionists who have lost thousands of pounds because they have had to remove large expensive props from the their act.

Of course there is a secret to a joke. If you doubt that just watch a comedian tell a joke and watch your drunk uncle try to tell the same joke.

I watched an illusionist do the linking rings and the sub trunk the night after the Masked Magician. He asked for a show of hands; half the audience admitted seeing the show. He then announced that he would fool them anyway - and he did.

If any illusionists removed large expensive props from their act after the Masked Magician, that is their fault, not his.

And Eshly, if you can't do entertaining mentalism after the psychological and body language explanations have been revealed to be cons, then that too is your problem, not the exposers. Mentalism can evolve and can adapt to exposure very easily. You don't have to be a Derren Brown clone.

I love the whole concept of the masked magician. It got people talking about magic again.

I don't think this will affect Mentalist that much. I recall a story about the time that The Masked Magician came out where he did a needle through thumb gag or something. Well the very next day, I forget the guys name, but one of the performers at the Magic Castle did the very same effect and pretty much fooled everybody there.

I don't think many people are going to watch the program because like it's been said before. Most people DON'T want to know how this or that is done. Plus many of those shows are very dull and boring. I can remember the times I got bored by trying to watch The Masked Magician. The guy has the charisma of a fart and the entertainment value of watching paint dry.

I don't have strong feelings either way, but I think that exposure like this - to a degree - can be a good thing for magic. Let me explain

Most people, probably more so nowadays because as Eshly points out communication is easier, will be able to pretty easily find the secret to a trick. It's on wikipedia, it's on youtube, it's on forums like this (to an extent) and some are published by the creator with detailed descriptions and diagrams in the form of a patent. Sure, it's pretty hard to accidentally come across it because the Internet is huge, but it's also easy to come across it if you're genuinely interested in magic

Leaving aside the ethics and legality of publishing this stuff in the first place (both of which I completely respect), it's simply a very good way for someone who is interested in magic to get into the hobby properly.

To laypeople — even interested and enthusiastic laypeople — magic is dark and mysterious and almost impossible to get into ("So I need to be in the magic circle before people tell me how to do tricks, but I need to perform a trick in order to get into the magic circle. Now what?").

Having these bits of exposure out there... hard to find and tucked in the corner of the schedules of a digital only TV station (whose viewers watch 16 minutes of a week), means that people who want to learn will watch, but those who just aren't interested will either tune out in a yawn or forget by the end of the week what tricks were even exposed. (They were probably more interested in staring at the assistants anyway)

Anyway, that's my point. Exposure could well bring us the next big mind in magic. I appreciate that it's illegal and creators put a lot of time, effort and money into inventing magic, but we need to remember that it's a very good way to get into the hobby/profession. Even if it's your uncle telling you how to vanish a handkerchief

And I don't think I need to repeat those who say that it's all about the presentation and being creative with your routines. But I think you're all right about it. And I think that Eshly does have a point. My heart, at least, sank a little bit when I realised that my favourite bearded mind reader couldn't actually do what he does the way he says he does it


With apologies in advance to anybody who I might have upset or offended by what I just said. I honestly don't mean to. I don't expose tricks (unless by handling is particularly bad after a pint or two :p), I just see a small value behind it

Eshly says "Psychics are dead"
I knew I was feeling a bit cold.

Eshly, the psychic business is a billion dollar industry. I'm not sure how you can call it dead. And if you are referring to magic/mentalism you are wrong again mentalism is on the rise, (much to the disapointment of most mentalists as it has become the 'in' thing).

I really think you need to go out and perform live for lay audiences for a while, it may open your eyes just a little wider then they are right now.

Kolm you are right on the money. I grew up in the magic industry so my 'realizations' were a little different, I was astounded to find out David Roth held an actual job at the worlds largest toy store. I mean the man has given so much to magic he was a top draw at every magic convention, (back in the day) and yet, he was just a regular guy with a regular job. Boy that realization took the wind out of my sails.

Paul Stockman writes, in part ". . . There is no secret in a joke. "

Au contraire!

There IS very much so; ever hear of a "punch line" or a "kicker line"?

And why can't the exact same joke get as big a laugh the second time?

How about "I don't get no respect" or "Doctor, it hurts when I do that. So, says the doctor, don't do that!"

It's called "entertainment". You know, what we are supposed to be doing.