talkmagic.co.uk

TonyB wrote:Everyone knows the arm twist is not magic, so why not have people going around the school practicing it? Maybe some of them might have a bigger interest in magic because of this. Where's the downside in that?

magicbyfish wrote:but this has been exposed on g-d knows how many shows allready ,

second,, well done, you have given the audience something they have definately remembered post show. in that way you have ensured that your performance and persona get a lot of extra publicity

This is exactly what I mean

oh thats ok then

its just about having morals, and sticking to your principles...

IAIN wrote:its just about having morals, and sticking to your principles...

He did. He considered it moral to expose what is a body trick that I think every schoolchild knows anyway :p

so i could expose the french drop and the DL cos i have them explained in some 60s marvel comics?

i dont understand why others dont think its wrong...personal choice obviously...and if "everyone knows it already" - why go and expose it again (cos following that logic they'd all know it anyway)...

just cos its been exposed by someone before - doesnt mean its ok to expose (phnar) it again and again...

I explained in more detail in a thread elsewhere, but basically I think it's a good way to teach those who want to get into magic but can't ("So nobody will tell me the secrets until I get into the magic circle... but I can't join the magic circle until I know magic. What now?"), and it's a good way to get people interested in magic. Narutodude taught a body trick, and now the whole school is doing it. Even if it makes one person get into magic seriously, wouldn't it be worth it?

I dunno, it's just the way I see things. I'm always one for sharing my ideas to anyone who'll listen, don't care what they do with it. I respect that you're against exposure

Libraries have books on magic, books written by people who came up with or asked permission to teach those effects. This is the best way to get into magic. Don't tell people how to do effects, tell them how to learn effects.

As the old saying goes, give a man a fish and he will feed himself for a day, teach a man to fish and he will feed himself forever.

without any acrimonious intentions I have to disagree. They way to get people into magic is to perform strong, well rehearsed magic that appeals to people. There are enough books out there if people care that much. Elitism gets right up my nose- but it is an outdated idea that magic is incredibly difficult to get into because of elitism: go to amazon, a library or waterstones buy some books, some cards and learn- nobody is going to spoon feed it to you.
And should anybody think that conclusion is ideological and unreal or whatever: I know it to be true- in that I have inspired a good handfull of people to pick up a deck of cards and start learning, with some cards. Once they have the interest, then I showed them about double lifts and key cards so they could go and entertain their family and sustain their interest. So far, none have got to the 'obsession' stage that grips us, but one, at least, is now an armchair hobbyist who performs regurlarly for his family.

you're using a displaced argument to make your own point sam...

we're not talking about tutoring anyone - we're saying a guy is up on stage trying to win a competition - he won it, partly, because he exposed a method that wasnt his to expose...

there is an intrinsic difference in my opinion...

and no one, apart from you, mentioned elitism...

I am unsure who Sam was disagreeing with, because I can read that post and feel like he is seconding what I said. Can somebody clarify?

They way to get people into magic is to perform strong, well rehearsed magic that appeals to people.

Correct, standing up on stage and exposing methods is not really a performance.

There are enough books out there if people care that much.

A fact I am very thankful for.

nobody is going to spoon feed it to you.

Sadly, people like Narutodude will, if you sit in his audience.

I wasn't seconding it. When I submitted it your post had appeared in the time it took me to write what I did- I was disagreeing with kolm.

When it comes to Elitism, I was refering to when kolm mentioned the point about 'we're not going to teach you anything until you get into the magic circle- 'so how do I get in' or something along those sorts of words. My post was disagreing with that and saying that that was outdated.

I wasn't just randomly saying stuff. Finally, waffles.

Thanks for clarification Sam.

Oh yeah, I wholeheartedly agree that books are better than exposure. And you probably could be right about it being easy to get hold of books nowadays

And I'm not pro spoonfeeding either, again books and self discovery is better for that. I just don't think there's anything wrong with teaching somebody one trick if they show an interest, and saying where they can learn more. Sorry if I wasn't clear with that

Glad it's all cleared up now

Although in this case i don't agree, (im not trying to bring the subject back up again but..), i think that a combination of your views amounts to the best solution.

People should have an incentive to understand whether or not they want to get into magic, and you want this incentive to be something that encourages the people who will be loyal and faithfull to tradition rather than the average joe who wants to find out the answer to a trick.

In this case i don't think it really matters because it is nothing fundamental in the course to becoming a good magician. However, i do think that on the level, exposure of any trick is wrong, even this simple, and perhaps it would have been better if he just showed people the trick and used a subtle explanation that it is very simple and easy to learn. This way maybe people would be encouraged to ask him how he does it, and he could show individuals, instead of revealing it to garner reactions.

It all boils down to the intent, if it is for a selfish means then it is exposure, if it is to encourage and explain to willing and suitable people then it is teaching.

Apart from this, well done! I may be older but i have knowhere near the confidence you have to step up on a stage in front of a large audience.

Keep it up!

exposure is the easy way out -especially during the context of a show, in this case, almost a popularity contest...

out of the thousands of tricks that would have been more potent, relatively quick and easy to learn (and all of allen's sage advice) - he took the coward's way out and exposed someone else's effect for his own benefit...

yes there's books, and wow, books in libraries - they take effort to go anf seek out (even the few minutes on the internet is effort) - and then the buying and studying - but thats a massive difference to what has gone on here...

i mean, considering he could have made a jumbo I.D. and done a prediction with it...quick and easy...time for presenting it well...but no... tell everyone how to do a trick instead...

we should all guard these secrets, and only help encourage people's interests further by giving them book titles and so forth to seek out and self-educate...

for my next trick, if you watch my thumb very carefully you'll see where it all goes....