talkmagic.co.uk

Hi all.
I've been lurking around for about a week, so thought I should introduce myself sooner rather than later.

My name's Stephen I'm 23, I first got into magic 6-7 years ago but didn't have the patience to keep it up. Then tried again a few years ago with Oz Pearlman's Born to Perform, but still didn't have the patience to really practice. Now I've finally taken up magic again, and after working my way through RRCM and a brief foray into Bobo's MCM I've settled on mentalism as being the art of choice for me (thanks to Corinda and Annemann).

My desk is now littered with hundreds of torn up bits of paper, but if anyone wants to write a word in the centre of a small piece of paper for me, I'll be there!

I've got a couple of questions about mentalism in general and a specific routine I've got floating about my head but I'll save those for later. For now I just wanted to say hello.

Hello.

Hi and welcome!

Hello and welcome!

Welcome to TM Dalin! You'll enjoy yourself immensely here... well, I do anyway!

I noticed something on another thread from you and rather than take that thread off topic, I thought I'd reply here

Dalin wrote:I prefer mentalism, I think the presentation required tends to flow much more naturally from me and I love the personal, almost intimate atmosphere that it can create. On the other hand I'm not sure I can allow myself to do all the pseudo-psychology which seems to be an almost intrinsic part of mentalism.

I think you and I are attracted to mentalism for similar reasons, the intimacy it can create is quite beautiful. However the whole 'pseudo-psychology' element is not an intrinsic element at all. There are SO many ways in which to present and perform mentalism without resorting to what is currently fashionable, ie the whole body language and NLP thing. I play it as a straight psychic performance but there are so many others too.
Don't forget, the old school performers never presented themselves as magicians or what we'd call 'entertainers' nowadays. They were psychics, mediums, clairvoyants and mystics.
There's an abundance of literature that can help you on the path to defining your persona. I can recommend Bob Cassidy's Fundamentals as a great starting block for such things and there's a thread on here too, a search for 'persona' should pull it. Paul Brook's Alchemical Tools is recommended by many though I've not got round to buying it yet

Much love

Thanks for your response. I'm in a fairly unique position as I only intend magic to be an additional source of income (that's not the unique bit) as I'm more than happy in my current job as a secondary school science teacher.

Mentalism is meant to entertain and either directly claiming psychic abilities or a understand of psychology is potentially ok in those circumstances. (I still have some issues with that, but, this isn't the place for that) However, if I'm talking about atoms and molecules to 15 year old kids one minute, then the next claiming some 'impossible' powers the next I'd feel I'm abusing my position as a teacher of science.

The most obvious argument here would be to stick a disclaimer on everything I do, such as Derren Brown. His claims of using showmanship and misdirection along with the "I'm honest about my dishonesty" stuff effectively mean that he's telling you he's lying to you.
That said, despite all of that and his recent 'paranormal busting' programs, many people will still swear to god that he's psychic. As soon as the squinting, staring and grunting starts, all of the "I'm probably lying to you" stuff goes out of the window.
While my school's psychology department might enjoy the surge in A level numbers I could probably cause, I'm not sure the students would be too happy when they found out that no amount of psychology will help them achieve the effects I can.

I realise that most people will disagree with me, and I'm certainly not trying to say that what you guys are doing is wrong and I do appreciate the advice, I'll look into those books now. I'm just saying that I don't think I'd feel comfortable promoting non-scientific claims, not only directly, but also indirectly, ie "you're a lady, so you'll probably thinking of a red card...*squint, stare murmur*... you smiled when you looked at the card too... jack of hearts!" <Rubbish example I know, but you know the kinda thing I mean.

*Edit* Sorry, just to clarify my post, I'm not saying "here are my problems, now solve them for me". I'm just putting across my personal predicament and the reasoning behind my opinions.

Hello Bud,

im thinking of a word.

go.

Hmmm, a bit of a dilemna for you there, I don't envy you on that.

Mentalism, when performed properly, should leave the audience with the notion that what they've just seen was real, whether it be body language interpretations or psychic ability. Essentially, as with all magic, mentalism is the art of lying. Brilliant and dramatic lying.

Perhaps mentalism isn't the route for you? Not that I'm trying to put you off, but unless you're going to turn round and explain that the book was gimmicked or you forced the card, then you're going to have to lie. If you can't find a way of lying that sits easily in your conscience with your primary role as a teacher then you're not going to enjoy it.

That said, I'm assuming you're not planning of performing mentalism to your pupils, so need it be a problem? Surely what you do as an entertainer doesn't need to be brought up in school.

At some point you'll find a way to do this stuff which is comfortable for you. I've seen lots of mentalists who are exceptionally skilled and entertaining but their persona and presentation wouldn't sit comfortably on my shoulders.

It's quite possible to be a comical mentalist, John Archer and Graham P Jolley spring immediately to mind (thanks to the write up for this year's Ipswich Magic Convention - cheers Simon !) and neither of them are dark, deep and mysterious mentalists. They are, however, brilliant entertainers which is what it's all about!

Teaching and mentalism are very similar, both require drama, showmanship and subtle manipulation of small things.

Mentalism, when performed properly, should leave the audience with the notion that what they've just seen was real

I'm not quite sure I'd agree with you there. If I see something, and I'm then told how you did it, while I'm very impressed that you're psychic or that you can read my body language I still 'know' how you did it and thus there is some form of closure.
If on the other hand I don't have a clue how you're doing it, then, in a perfect world the 'magic' in the original performance lingers for a while. Albeit until I decide that a camera or stage hand was just looking over my shoulder or some such. That said, even then I can't be sure.

A quote from Teller found in Bannachek's psychological subtleties:
Teller's just described the effect for a trick where a audience member has said his favourite flower is a rose, looked under his seat and found a "you will pick a rose" card.

"Now I could tell you that I foresaw that a rose-lover would choose that seat. But I'd be lying. I can't read minds. I can't predict the future.
And yet, you found an envelope under your chair and it told you you'd just chosen a rose.
How did it get there? I'll tell you this much: I put it there an hour ago.
"See? Already you have something to think about on that long drive home."

For me, that's always been the attraction to the really basic or 'naked' mentalism. As few props and as much of a personal touch as possible, trying to create a genuine 'magic moment' between you and the spectator who's just witnessed something completely unexplainable. Pure magic.
Whilst I agree that various claims add something to the performance (though I'm at a loss to put that 'something' into words), I also feel it takes some of the 'magic' away from it.
That said, I know nothing about presenting magic or what gives audiences a bigger and longer lasting "ooooo!" (err... that could have been phrased better).

Again apologies if this is sounding like arrogant ranting. It's more like the musings of an ignorant mentalist trying to work out exactly what he's thinking (I think there's some irony there somewhere) and using this forum as a sounding board.
Once again thank you for all of the feedback.

Sorry, just to clarify my post, I'm not saying "here are my problems, now solve them for me". I'm just putting across my personal predicament and the reasoning behind my opinions.

Don't worry, it didn't come across that way at all.

As few props and as much of a personal touch as possible, trying to create a genuine 'magic moment' between you and the spectator who's just witnessed something completely unexplainable. Pure magic.

That's essentially what I mean when I say 'real'! Whether you choose to give a label or explanation to what you do (ie psychic or psychology) or whether you choose not to at all and let them wonder, there's always that resulting "How did he/she do that?" from the spectator for hopefully a long time after the effect. Nobody is going to shrug off an impossible event just because you 'tell' them how it's done in a "Meh, he's just psychic" - even to the true believers, these events are still amazing.

I see what you're saying, reading through my previous post I think I overstated my point.

Welcome =)

Hi Dalin and welcome

Hiya, Stephen. Welcome to TM