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Sarah Jukes wrote:

Randy wrote:You may think it's not, but taking Public Speaking classes will help you out a lot.

Can you explain how public speaking classes will help someone find work on the internet?

Firstly, I think it's been explained that few of the Internet booking sources are worth the time it takes to fill out their availability forms. The majority of these groups aren't just locally focused, they tend to "screw" the performer when it comes to pay... while they certainly have their hand out for their "commission" they likewise hit you on extra fees and/or when they book you directly, take far more than the established standard when it comes to an agent's commission (10-25% depending on the kind of deal that's struck)

Public Speaking is one of several skill sets most magicians/variety entertainers ignore and it shows in the QUALITY of their performance; when you're a poor speaker/communicator you're a poor showman and thus, no matter your booking resource, you'll not get as much work and more importantly, you'll not earn the higher end of the pay scale.

The other reason for the Public Speaking side of things, especially if one is specializing in Mentalism type work, is that it's one of the better and easier vehicles to use for getting work. A large number of the world's more noted full-time mentalists of the past 25 years get the bulk of their gigs via public speaking resources. You will hear Lee Earle, Larry Becker, Jon Stetson and many others echo this very fact. BUT with Public Speaking there is an important footnote one must consider when ti comes to those booking Agencies: they take as much as half the booked scale as their commission.

Why?

The Agency I worked with in Ohio won't book a speaker for less than $1,500.00.. .their "low end" talent books at $1,500.00 to $10,000.00 and when I say "low end" I more or less mean people that are just starting out and who are yet established in a given specialty as a "repeat" resource. We are likewise looking at those who've yet published a solid book or two on their specialty (and I do mean a "real" book distributed by legitimate publishers... the kind of thing that gets "Top Seller" status or on the Oprah book club... for lack of a better example).

Long story short, why would you want to "work" harder than you need to for better money than the typical magician/mentalist sees as per gig income? Especially when it comes to gigs that can put you in front of the real movers & shakers of the corporate world?

As to the Internet & Talent Buyers... while most legit firms have a web presence they ALL want video and basic press kit. Unless you're a poor little rich kid with a Mommy & Daddy supported venture fund, such items are going to take time to pull together and a decent chunk of cash. Before you can even start forming that material you must have AN ACT... an actual product to sell vs. a generic label of "Magician" or the current buzz term "Mentalist" (and god help you when you list the two together... that's when you prove to the world that you're just part of a trend).

I know, many will argue that "work is work" and even that "it's all the same thing" but in the eyes of a talent buyer that's not reality. If you are the "Jack of all trades" type of "performer" you will always be viewed as a filler act and thus, bottom of the pile. When you specialize and have a definable act/product, you won't just get work you will be seen as an actual "Brand" which means you make the bigger dollars... just ask Max Maven if you don't believe me.


Yes, you can get generic gigs via the internet if you don't mind doing more travel than is required for nominal pay and not get your costs covered. This was my experience with three different Internet companies and one of the biggest reasons why I would discourage everyone from seeking out such representation.

Not exactly on the topic of getting work but certainly in terms of what other skills might be of use, many of the top performers recommend taking tuition in other skills.

Jeff McBride suggests acting and also dancing, Paul Daniels suggests theatre studies and getting a critique from a professional theatre director, and Geoff Durham, who comes from an acting background, suggests having skills in acting and presentation can only be a good thing for any magish. If you can get hold of a copy of Geoff’s book ( http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic23614.php ) there are some seriously god tips included.

For a year in school I had to take a combined drama and public speaking course. At the time I thought it was the most pointless waste of time ever. Since then I've come to realise the benefits I got out of it.

Anybody with enough nerve can stand up and talk to other people. But there's a lot more to it than that if you want to make a good impression and be taken seriously.

I can't agree more on the necessity of public speaking training or better still (IMHO) acting classes. My performing background, long before magic, was theatre.
When I started, years later, leading training sessions etc that theatre background served me well and now, as a mentalist it is serving me tenfold that it did as a trainer.
I far prefer (and have previously discussed as such) to rehearse my performance with theatre types rather than magicians. Their feedback is far more constructive.

I think that drama really helps in life, not just magic. I was involved in a drama group as well as a dance school through most of my teens and really do think that the skills that I got from those has really got me a long way. They taught me how to speak, how to communicate and how to present myself. Things that are hugely important in both my work as well as obviously my magic.

Watch anything Ricky Jay does. His communication skills, just the way he speaks is something to strive for.

Lady of Mystery wrote:I think that drama really helps in life, not just magic. I was involved in a drama group as well as a dance school through most of my teens and really do think that the skills that I got from those has really got me a long way. They taught me how to speak, how to communicate and how to present myself. Things that are hugely important in both my work as well as obviously my magic.

I have a friend that used to teach dance, (yes he is now a hair dresser, he is actually my wife's hair dresser which is how we met him). The second thing I noticed about him was the way he moved, the way he presented himself. I don't think it would be possible to take a bad picture of him because every movment, every action is so gracefull and flowing. It is easy to picture him on a stage. One of the first things I asked him was how long as he been dancing? His response, "Oh, how did you know?" Any person who works on a stage would be envious of how he moves.

I've looked into adwords and other such programs like it. Adwords won't get you bookings, it just makes it so that if someone is searching for a certain keyword they might come to your site on the Google or yahoo search. It doesn't mean they will click on it, or even look at it.

What he is doing now is pretty much fine, he's showing people in person what he can do and that will get them interested in him more than a simple website. Also unless you have the money, Google adwords can be kind of costly because you have to pay for each click that comes to your website.

I did mention craigslist, and yeah that can be a bit of a iffy thing to use. But I've known good entertainers who have used it in the past. You just have to do the research and no when to turn down things that seem like a bad idea.

Mandrake wrote:Jeff McBride suggests acting and also dancing, Paul Daniels suggests theatre studies and getting a critique from a professional theatre director, and Geoff Durham, who comes from an acting background, suggests having skills in acting and presentation can only be a good thing for any magish. If you can get hold of a copy of Geoff’s book ( http://www.talkmagic.co.uk/ftopic23614.php ) there are some seriously god tips included.

Couldn't agree more with all of that.

But this is a thread about getting work using the internet to achieve that goal.

I might be being really stupid but I cannot see how public speaking will secure you more work via the internet.

Craig Browning wrote:Yes, you can get generic gigs via the internet if you don't mind doing more travel than is required for nominal pay and not get your costs covered. This was my experience with three different Internet companies and one of the biggest reasons why I would discourage everyone from seeking out such representation.

Mr Browning, I don't know you, all I see is the essays you post here that seem to be focussed on some glory days you had many years ago. What you say could well be right in 1989.

Google Adwords will allow you to target a geographical region. Therefore you do not get gigs outside your travelling area.

Sarah Jukes wrote:

Craig Browning wrote:Yes, you can get generic gigs via the internet if you don't mind doing more travel than is required for nominal pay and not get your costs covered. This was my experience with three different Internet companies and one of the biggest reasons why I would discourage everyone from seeking out such representation.

Mr Browning, I don't know you, all I see is the essays you post here that seem to be focussed on some glory days you had many years ago. What you say could well be right in 1989.

Google Adwords will allow you to target a geographical region. Therefore you do not get gigs outside your travelling area.

You also need a website and he doesn't have one. So stop kissing google adwords ass like it's the King of getting business. It's not, and there are other things out there.

The stuff we mentioned will help him KEEP his current clients and will also help him improve himself.

Randy wrote:I've looked into adwords and other such programs like it. Adwords won't get you bookings, it just makes it so that if someone is searching for a certain keyword they might come to your site on the Google or yahoo search. It doesn't mean they will click on it, or even look at it.

On a bit of a tangent, has anyone here used adwords and the like to advertise to get magic gigs? I'll be interested on a personal level to know how well it works for magicians

PS. I still have a couple of voucher codes that'll end up having to go into the recycling bin in a couple of weeks :p

I used to Google adwords many years ago and got precisely no bookings from them. But that could be my fault and not Google adwords.

However it did seem that you needed to spend a lot of money per click (around £5) to get your ad anywhere near the top. And if you're not at the top, what's the point? Nobody is going to search through pages of Google Ads until they find your particular ad. If you're not in the top 4 ads, I suspect there's no point even doing it.

Randy wrote:

Sarah Jukes wrote:

Craig Browning wrote:Yes, you can get generic gigs via the internet if you don't mind doing more travel than is required for nominal pay and not get your costs covered. This was my experience with three different Internet companies and one of the biggest reasons why I would discourage everyone from seeking out such representation.

Mr Browning, I don't know you, all I see is the essays you post here that seem to be focussed on some glory days you had many years ago. What you say could well be right in 1989.

Google Adwords will allow you to target a geographical region. Therefore you do not get gigs outside your travelling area.

You also need a website and he doesn't have one. So stop kissing google adwords ass like it's the King of getting business. It's not, and there are other things out there.

The stuff we mentioned will help him KEEP his current clients and will also help him improve himself.

Sorry, my bad I thought when he asked about how to get work online he wanted to know how to get work online.

Obviously, I misread him asking how to get work online and he actually meant how to keep keep clients and improve himself.

I feel so silly!

Sarah Jukes wrote:

Craig Browning wrote:Yes, you can get generic gigs via the internet if you don't mind doing more travel than is required for nominal pay and not get your costs covered. This was my experience with three different Internet companies and one of the biggest reasons why I would discourage everyone from seeking out such representation.

Mr Browning, I don't know you, all I see is the essays you post here that seem to be focussed on some glory days you had many years ago. What you say could well be right in 1989.

Google Adwords will allow you to target a geographical region. Therefore you do not get gigs outside your travelling area.

Firstly, I'd suggest you simply ask or maybe google me or better yet, look up my introduction here (that's why we have them).

True, I've been semi-retired for most of the past 10 years or so due to health issues but I still perform and more to the point, I'm still a consultant and award winning effects designer within the grand illusion scheme of things (and a couple of bits tied to mentalism). I'm likewise known for my On-Line VISIONS column and contributions to several other magazines, books, etc. So as they say, be careful showing your hind-side when you're in a forum, you may not know you're speaking to.

I can assure you that working by your theory you'll probably go hungry. Just look at what the majority of people have said and echoed in this discussion. The fact that YOU CAN'T GET WORK UNLESS YOU HAVE COMPLETED THE REQUISITES;

* Schooling/Training
* Hands-on Experience - everything from schlepping for other acts (even non-magic related), warehouse work with a theatrical props type resource, lighting companies, etc. ANYTHING that lets you learn more about "the business"
* A Set Persona & Validating Program (a.k.a. Product) which happens to include a script, costumes, props, and a slew of other things depending upon what you're doing... sometimes it could mean a semi-trailer or two.
* A Business Plan with a 3/5/and 10 year outline (map) that you will hold to (this is a BUSINESS after all, not just fun & games).
* GUTS & PERSEVERANCE -- you will known more failures than successes. This is such a truth in the business world (but especially show biz) that UCLA offers an actual class on surviving failure and why it's important.

You might want to bear in mind Sarah, that those that have glory days have been there and done it; they DO know more because they've lived it! Of course you could cling to your snide attitude and short change yourself when it comes to LEARNING about this craft or life for that matter. I just find it interesting how many people huddled around Dai Vernon nearly every evening at the Magic Castle listening to him talking about his Glory Days... but then I've always sat with the older performers because I wanted to learn... oddly, I've now become one of those old guys