talkmagic.co.uk

Just watched the Derren podcasts about science of scams. Very good if you've not watched.

I just watched Baseketball. I urge all to do the same.

Lawrence wrote:I just watched Baseketball. I urge all to do the same.

Steeeeeeeve Perry

I personally couldn't be doing with them in the slightest. They're the epitome of everyhing I loathe about Derren and none of what I admire.
His constant psychic-bashing and holier than thou attitude to psychic readers and mediums is second only to the venom you hear from Luke Jermay.

Of the whole series, two spring to mind without having to suffer a re-watch:

Ghosts - Since when is it acceptable to expose methodology? Just because you're Derren Brown? The method exposed here is in use by many a haunted house attraction and paranormal entertainer.

Cold Reading - This just reminded me of the attacks Ian Rowland advocates. The cold reading in question isn't that good though in all fairness.

he didnt need to expose pepper's ghost...

and all the people on the shows had been exposed (in better and more varied ways) by other people anyway...so he was just kicking at corpses really...

and derren actually cheated, and didnt use cold reading at all, but p**-s*** which by its very nature obviously far more accurate...

and, while I'm here, i should point out that his first few specials he didnt have a disclaimer - and his character was more Bandler-like; its interesting to see how he was forced into a corner as it were...

still love the majority of his work, but the past year or so - meh, not so much...some of the presentations don't work within the reasonings he gives during the performance...

IAIN wrote:he didnt need to expose pepper's ghost...
still love the majority of his work, but the past year or so - meh, not so much...some of the presentations don't work within the reasonings he gives during the performance...

I still love the vast majority of his work for what it is. The only thing that's really disappointed me as a whole was The Events last year, I just thought they were really weak. Fingers crossed, with the new stuff he's currently filming along with a TV airing of Enigma he can get back on to his (high ) horse again.

What Iain and Van_der_Belt said.

It is a complex issue as there are two conflicting moral stances at play. However overall I agree with lawrence basketball rocks.

I have long given up scepticism; not because it is not a valid method for discovering truth, but if you're really a skeptic then all you can accept is cartesian doubt which is a small box which is not comfortable to live in.

There are unignorable double standards- I believe Derren cites Neitzche, who famously said that religion was a kind of neurosis (which is funny, because he spent the last decade or so of his life in psychosis). But Neitzche also said that morality comes from religion and is simply the result of peasants' contempt for authority; that is to say there is no good or evil (and no ethics involved with charlatanism). He was also a subjectivist or at least a perspectivist- a relativistic view of beliefs. He also believed that philosophers' reason was merley the facade of their own biases- a parallel that is easily drawn to scarily dogmatic Atheists.

If we were to eliminate double standards then either: a) there are no ethical issues involved with 'charlatanism' (A charge most mentalists would by definition be guilty of), or b) We would have the right to expose Derren on the same morally vacuous argument.

Plus, 'Exposing' Cold Reading is really quite futile. Most people know about it any way- to my knowledge, a huge debt is owed to the lovely southpark for this. Also John Edwards in himself is an example of the type of Cold Reading the general public (at least in Britain) are aware of that is used by unscrupulous psychics. However, even though the vast majority of people are familiar, either explicitly or inadvertantly (ie, aware of vague, enigmatic and meaningless bull and blatant fishing), I have still seen the supposedly more prudent populus who are aware of Cold Reading be fooled by quite good cold reading or other tactics which cold readers use to gleam information which I shall not discuss. Of course though, were Derren to expose openly these methods, then perhaps people might catch on to how he does a few of his stunts.

Finally on Atheism, promoting it is as meaningless as me labeling myself as someone who believes in trousers. It is utterly meaningless. Atheists tend to shout about reason and rationalism, but when it comes down to elementary classical logic they fail miserably. For those who are interested I shall elaborate- the statement 'God exists' is not a synthetic one (To use Bertrand Russell parlance- not something a priori), as God could be defined as Gorgonzolla cheese, a sweeping brush, a tree or so on. If a statement is not synthetic then it is analytic, meaning that once the terms of the definition are agreed upon then it can be propsed true or not true. Therefore the quesiton of weather God exists or not, is totally insipid- as it assumes agreed definitions on a deity but defining God is incredibly subjective- something mentioned by Atheists all the time- Indeed there are valid arguments about the qualities and thus, definition of a deity (such as benevolence- which cannot exist with qualities of all-powerfullness- omnipotence and omniscience). But as Pantheists, such as Spinoza, for example say that God is everything- well it is an elementary axiom that everything that exists, exists and if God is everything then God exists. But classifying oneself as a theist upon that logic is essentially labeling yourself as someone who believes in the self evidence of an axiom, in other words- pointless. Nobody wastes there time labeling themselves an 'A-trouserist' or a 'Trouserist', so why do they do it with Thesim?

Apart from Atheism being a massive waste of time (as Noam Chomsky said at a lecture: 'It must seem cruel of me to ignore the big humanitarian issues we could be discussing and talk about something completley unrelated') it has nothing to do with mentalism. OK promoting cynicism when it comes the oft charlatan world of the psychic is very nice, but only the ardent care: and that is once again something which is self evident.

Kai Burton wrote:

Lawrence wrote:I just watched Baseketball. I urge all to do the same.

Steeeeeeeve Perry

s***!

Just watched them and to be honest i thought they were just a load of tripe.

Im a big fan of Derren but im not impressed by his participation in this podcasts.

They are dull and rubbish and i dont think anyone will be impressed by the exposure.

My thinking is, if i believe in something and someone comes up with an explanation then it doesnt mean its not true!

Thanks for bringing them to our attention tho

Alec

kobain wrote:Just watched them and to be honest i thought they were just a load of tripe.

Im a big fan of Derren but im not impressed by his participation in this podcasts.

They are dull and rubbish and i dont think anyone will be impressed by the exposure.

My thinking is, if i believe in something and someone comes up with an explanation then it doesnt mean its not true!

Thanks for bringing them to our attention tho

Alec

Out of interest, Why were they 'dull and rubbish' other than everyone else has said so?

*No, I'm not being sarcastic. I simply prefer constructive criticism. If we think something is bad, knowing why we think it helps us to avoid being bad ourselves.

SamGurney wrote:

kobain wrote:Just watched them and to be honest i thought they were just a load of tripe.

Im a big fan of Derren but im not impressed by his participation in this podcasts.

They are dull and rubbish and i dont think anyone will be impressed by the exposure.

My thinking is, if i believe in something and someone comes up with an explanation then it doesnt mean its not true!

Thanks for bringing them to our attention tho

Alec

Out of interest, Why were they 'dull and rubbish' other than everyone else has said so?

*No, I'm not being sarcastic. I simply prefer constructive criticism. If we think something is bad, knowing why we think it helps us to avoid being bad ourselves.

They were dull in that they are around 5 mins long each and so just leave you with that "oh" sensation rather than a well produced production that goes in depth about the techniques used.

They were rubbish to me because they failed to teach me anything new.

I also dont see what the point of these podcasts are. I know Derren has been focusing on frauds in his latest shows but i was disappointed to see him waste time on these dull and rubbish podcasts as his other work has normally been of a good standard.

Hope that helps you understand from my viewpoint.

Alec

I also dont see what the point of these podcasts are.

I believe they were originally produced as a Schools Programme rather than as podcasts. I can't remember where I read that and I'm in bed on my phone so can't be bothered looking either - perhaps one of the more ardent Brown devotees can shed further light?
If not, I'll have a good look tomorrow to make sure it's not my imagination.

I personally tire of the constant "exposure" & "debunking" that Derren's work has centred around over the past few years. Mediums don't really talk to the dead? No s***. Did we need an hour long programme to figure that gem out? What would be interesting would be to talk to the people who attend mediumship shows and gleam from them what the experience means to them and how it enriches their lives. But what do we get instead? Derren chasing some third rate medium around a Liverpool housing estate and harping on about something called "cold reading".

The boy clearly has some kind of obsession with matters spiritual (and Spiritualist) as it is a theme that he returns to again and again (Seance, Messiah, Man Who Contacts The Dead etc etc). But the programmes are conducted in such a manner as to imply that nobody else can play around with this subject matter because I, the great Derren, have played around with it and have debunked it. Please everyone, move along. Return to your grey lives, flipping burgers in MacDonalds or stacking shelves in the supermarket. There is no truth in religion. No-one is truly psychic. We live. We work. We die. That is all. See how I have liberated you? But tune in next week when Derren will be investigating the ouija board and exposing something called ideo-motor function . He does it so you don't have to.

Screw that I say. My name is Paul Voodini and I am an old school mentalist. I happily accept the mantle of "psychic". I say it's time to put the mental back into mentalism and stop reducing our art to that of parlour tricks for the amusement of the rationalists. We're entertainers. We're mystifiers. We're weird. The only thing I want to expose is a number that you wrote down on a piece of paper and that I can't possibly have seen. Psychic you say? Well, some have called me that...

I can't believe I'm going to click "submit". Whoops. Too late. I did.