talkmagic.co.uk

mark lewis wrote:It seems to me that before getting agitated you should look at all my previous posts since you have so much time on your hands. You may learn something.

I'd expect this of a newcomer, but not of some of the more established TM members.

It's not as if Mr Lewis is an easy presence to miss on this board, and his views on the psychic industry and readings have been very well expressed in the past. If I had two free evenings in October, I'd be first in line to attend his sessions in London - even though readings aren't a staple part of my repertoire.

I had a bit of a discussion with friends in Edinburgh last month about skeptics, cynics and atheists - arguing that they're becoming every bit as aggressive, evengelical and intolerant as the bible-bashing tubthumpers that used to knock on my door every Saturday or harrass kids waiting in line at punk rock gigs, telling us all that we needed to adopt their beliefs for our own good... They got nicely irate over that idea - thereby proving my point.

And, for the record, I consider myself healthily skeptical and proudly agnostic on most faith-based issues.

Back to the point though, I would urge anyone to find out where Mark's coming from on the subject of psychics and readings before challenging him to a fight. It'll save you a lot of embarrassment in the long run.

Pete

No offence Mark, but I suspect the reason sceptics don't pay for a test reading is because as soon as you say "That will cost you", it does make you sound very much like the mad cat lady who charges you £640 to fix your cracked aura.

No offence, I'm not saying your mad or bad, but thats how it might come across.

pcwells wrote:I had a bit of a discussion with friends in Edinburgh last month about skeptics, cynics and atheists - arguing that they're becoming every bit as aggressive, evengelical and intolerant as the bible-bashing tubthumpers that used to knock on my door every Saturday or harrass kids waiting in line at punk rock gigs, telling us all that we needed to adopt their beliefs for our own good... They got nicely irate over that idea - thereby proving my point.

Thank you! This is going off topic but with the Pope's visit to the UK this week, my Faceache page has been clogged up with people moaning about it and yelling about how much God really doesn't exist.

It's as if you can't say believe in God and be intelligent these days, and saying you're an Atheist is a way of saying you're intelligent. To me, it says you're blinkered to any evidence to the contrary. Which isn't very smart IF any comes along. Einstein believed in God, "God doesn't play dice with the universe." Gonna lock horns with him? Hmm?

But hey, back on topic. Psychics.

I feel like going off topic just to annoy the rather silly young man who has recently joined us and keeps reprimanding us not to go off topic. Mind you I expect on this occasion he will be quite pleased to change the subject.

I am afraid the Einstein argument doesn't mean much because Stephen Hawking who seems to be the modern day version of Einstein doesn't believe in God either.

All I wish to say on this is that I find it remarkable the difference between Britain and the US in this regard. In the UK you are considered terribly abnormal if you are religious and it can be the kiss of death for politicians yet in the US you are considered abnormal if you are NOT religious and politicians have to keep prattling as much as possible that they believe in God.

But let me pay some attention to the irritant Eshly. Oddly enough I want to stick up for him despite his impertinence. I have seen people attack him for what I see as no good reason. Lawrence seems to be one of them from his idiotic remark.

If Lawrence likes the Bunny forum so much I suggest he retreats back to his hutch and hopefully contracts myxmiatosis as many of the members there seem to have already contracted the disease.

And the reason that we charge sceptics a fee to test us is because it shuts them up rather effectively. They keep prattling that the onus is on psychics to prove themselves rather than the other way round. All I can say to that is why should we bother? We are making enough money without their help so why should we pay any attention to them unless they are going to pay us?

If they are the ones making all the noise it is up to THEM to prove fakery. We spiritual people are far too busy helping the needy and copping the gelt. If you don't know what the last expression means I suggest you consult a psychic to find out.

Grimshaw wrote:

pcwells wrote:I had a bit of a discussion with friends in Edinburgh last month about skeptics, cynics and atheists - arguing that they're becoming every bit as aggressive, evengelical and intolerant as the bible-bashing tubthumpers that used to knock on my door every Saturday or harrass kids waiting in line at punk rock gigs, telling us all that we needed to adopt their beliefs for our own good... They got nicely irate over that idea - thereby proving my point.

Thank you! This is going off topic but with the Pope's visit to the UK this week, my Faceache page has been clogged up with people moaning about it and yelling about how much God really doesn't exist.

It's as if you can't say believe in God and be intelligent these days, and saying you're an Atheist is a way of saying you're intelligent. To me, it says you're blinkered to any evidence to the contrary. Which isn't very smart IF any comes along. Einstein believed in God, "God doesn't play dice with the universe." Gonna lock horns with him? Hmm?

But hey, back on topic. Psychics.

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly."

- Albert Einstein


He did however believe in the life of Jesus and believed the bible was a good book. Currantly 97% of the Royal Acadamy of Scientists are Atheist, and 98% do not believe in any psychic abilities.

If they are the ones making all the noise it is up to THEM to prove fakery. We spiritual people are far too busy helping the needy and copping the gelt. If you don't know what the last expression means I suggest you consult a psychic to find out.

Not true. You claim to have an abnormal and rare power; therefore the burden of guilt is on you. In the same way if I claim to have a magic sandwich, and no one believes me, it is not their fault for them not being able to prove I don't have a magic sandwich.

And the reason that we charge sceptics a fee to test us is because it shuts them up rather effectively. They keep prattling that the onus is on psychics to prove themselves rather than the other way round. All I can say to that is why should we bother? We are making enough money without their help so why should we pay any attention to them unless they are going to pay us?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kAdZcbfiGY

We've offered them VERY directly a lot of money, in this case a million dollars, to read even simple thoughts, and so far they've all failed. I'd love for one to be real.


If you Mark can tell me something personal; pets first name, bank number, brothers name etc, then I'll send you £100 via paypal. I can do that.

Sorry I was late to the game, but...

hds02115 wrote:This is my only post on this as I'm not going to play to this guys ego. I know there are enough people out there who feel the same. I did tell him that I wasn't after a fight, just a discussion, and when he thretened to give himself a stage, I lost interest because I knew he would just mis-quote things I had sent him. If anyone actually wants to know what was said in these pms, please let me know and maybe I'll post the WHOLE set of messages. not snippets that are selectivly cut to make the other look bad.

That is all. For those of you who take mark seriously, I feel very sorry, but I call out to people who are like me not to feed this guys twisted ego.

For starters JUNIOR why are you being the stereotypical Butthead?

I was just discussing this type of problem with a skeptics groups I happen to belong to and the issue of Bullies within the skeptic's arena came up, which included Randi and many of his cult members. If you want to "call people out" I'm certain Rev. Lewis and I could arrange for you to do just that, face to face with working psychics... we'll see how long your smug attitude lasts along side your head full of garbage, misinformation, misrepresentation, et al.

Every child that gets his Criss Angel Magic kit (well, actually it's almost always the same kit that's been sold for decades, just with the current Tv name and face printed on the box... but aside from that...), believes that because they enjoy magic they must instantly become an atheist and take a dump on everything magickle? Then again, we find those hitting the 148+ range on their IQ scores that think they are demi-gods and can thus "intelligently" discern matters ignoring the fact that they have little to no REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE in the matter; just a lot of book learning presented to them from a biased perspective vs. a more rounded and balanced way of seeing things... you know.. .like the real world is v.s the intellectual fantasy of things being black & white and fitting in precise pigeon holes based on "their" definition.

This kind of attitude and antics are what give skeptics a really bad name. You didn't want a "discussion" you were calling Mark out for a duel but sadly, you haven't put bullets in your cap gun.

Eshly wrote:Mark, why are you charging for a test reading? I would have thought that "passing" such a test would make you more money in the long run; and I can't imagine it would cost you anything to "read" someone?

I am not an expert, I cannot claim to see inside your head. Please tell more.

How many times do you need to be slapped down Eshly? You’re one of the last people on this board that should be having the audacity to consider challenging Mark or anyone. You haven’t the experience or knowledge enough to conduct any kind of honest investigation and I’m willing to go as far as to say, you don’t know anything close to what Mark or I know when it comes to Cold Reading methods and more! In other words, you’d not be happy with the turn out but I’ll go one step further here…
… some years ago I accepted just such a challenge, I did the Reading and pegged the jerk line for line… the magicians laughed and said I was wrong when I pointed out how deceptive and dishonorable he was but two weeks later it was discovered that he was posting book copies on eBay and then some…

Would you want Mark to expose such shadows about you for the world to see?

Eshly wrote:No offence Mark, but I suspect the reason sceptics don't pay for a test reading is because as soon as you say "That will cost you", it does make you sound very much like the mad cat lady who charges you £640 to fix your cracked aura.

No offence, I'm not saying your mad or bad, but thats how it might come across.

One reason I personally charge for any and all Readings where I even remotely suspect a magician is about is because of Ian Rowland’s assholiness in that blasted book of his in which he encourages young wannabe fools to visit their local Readers, waste their time and skip out on paying them for it so that they can generate some local press as being “debunkers” and “experts”… I’d love to have you do that with some of the people I’ve investigated and see just how long you keep breathing… I’m not kidding; these people WILL kill you if they are running a scam. So you go right ahead and listen to an inexperienced intellect tell you about how it works and then follow his advice…if you’re lucky you’ll just get the tongue lashing and have everyone in the region know that YOU aren’t trustworthy or honorable.

Grimshaw wrote: It's as if you can't say believe in God and be intelligent these days, and saying you're an Atheist is a way of saying you're intelligent. To me, it says you're blinkered to any evidence to the contrary. Which isn't very smart IF any comes along. Einstein believed in God, "God doesn't play dice with the universe." Gonna lock horns with him? Hmm?

THANK YOU! This is very close to something I’ve expressed for years and one of the reasons I joke about only being 93% non-believer… that is how a true skeptic is; Cynics on the other hand want it all in niches, black & white and nothing outside the lines of THEIR coloring book.

And as to the quote from old Albert E about God... I can show you a dozen others that would suggest the contrary including the claim that his work was aimed at explaining God itself as well as how God "did it".

Craig, you'll find that many non-religious people, including myself do that. Referancing God does not mean you believe in him. Whereas the above Einstein quote is DIRECT and VERY explicit.

Stephen Hawking is a renound atheist and yet ends his most famous book with a very ambigous comment about Gods creation.

Einstein was an atheist. Not that it really matters; but you'll find the following things are true of psychics and believers in God generally, they seem to have these things in common:

-Both rely on a very large degree of faith (belief without evidence)

-Neither are willing to make testiments to their beliefs

-If you find a way of proving there is a logical hole in their beleif, they will change it and instead claim something else. This is why people claim "God exists outside time", because if God existed inside time he could not be eternal. Theres no obvious reason for him to exist outside time, other than its a handy get-out clause so people can keep believing in him.

- No matter how much money you offer a psychic, they never seem willing/able to show you their abilities.




I wish I could find a real psychic somewhere, but I'm too clever to think they might exist. I also wish Santa was real, but theres even less evidence for his existance, so I cannot fool myself that way either.


"I am too sceptical to believe in the impossability of anything!"

How about some one posts a poll on who believes in psychics?

Having read this thread its obvious that there are a lot of strong feelings being typed in anger.

I believe in freedom of speech. If someone chooses to not believe in a God or real paranormal powers then thats ok with me. if someone chooses to believe then that is fine too.

For the record I dont believe In a God and i also dont believe that any person on this planet possesses real paranormal powers.
I would argue that the onus does indeed lie on the person claiming to hold such power, as to do nothing is proof of nothing, its just a statement.

Rather than continue to berate people on here why not just show your hand for free and be done with it??
If I claimed to play guitar and people didnt believe me, i certainly wouldnt expect payment to bang out a tune!
If however I asked for payment then people would still not KNOW that i could actually play the guitar so i would have proven nothing.

Im hoping that this is read in the way it is intended as i have no desire to get involved in the baiting that is going on here.

Ill look forward to making my vote should someone set up a poll.

Just my 2 pence worth.

Alec

Too busy to reply, currently working out if there's a correlation between dates mandrake is on holiday and mark lewis' post count...

kolm wrote:Too busy to reply, currently working out if there's a correlation between dates mandrake is on holiday and mark lewis' post count...

That was actually really witty

Boy, did I open up a hornet's nest. But, a fun one nevertheless.

My quote was not even entirely accurate, but it refers (roughly) to a response Einstein made in a reply to the notion of Quantum Mechanics. Now, if i were an atheist, i wouldn't pretend that a 'God' made anything in the universe and as such would not use that God as ammunition in an argument. Eshly, your quote could have been taken from Einstein years before or after mine and he may have changed his mind on the existence of God. Just like Stephen Hawking. I too - though i obviously don't put myself in their league - used to believe in God am now agnostic. It happens. Even to those considered genius.

Einstein was pretty much a pantheist, but guess what? That means he believes in a God. Its a God that is like The Force in Star Wars, but its a God nonetheless. An atheist wouldnt believe such a thing.

Your stats on the percentage of people belonging to the Royal Academy that are Atheists only serve to prove my point. Now everyone will be linking the two and going "Look at me! I don't believe either! Can i join your gang? You're smart!"

I agree on your points Mark about the difference between Britain and the US with attitudes to religious politicians. I remember Blair banging on about God when he was discussing his decision to invade Iraq and marvelled at how much gall he must have to use that old chestnut in this country. Obviously, Bush spoke to God personally so he was alright.

If a God did create everything around us, do you really think he'd give something as pathetic as a human being the brain and ability to understand him? Whatever would be the point in that? This exist inside or outside time nonsense...there are Jellyfish that can live forever, so why can't a God do it?

I'm with kobain, i think people should be allowed to believe whatever they want, as long as they don't wear their beliefs as a badge of intelligence. It annoys me and usually proves the exact opposite.

Thread suggests Mark Lewis and Elshy are one and the same.
Self-trolling.... interesting.

1. Jellyfish do not live forever, they just don't age.

2. Yes he was a Panthiest, but this is VERY far from believing in a God and saying "Einstein believed in God" is a lie, as his idea of a God is very different from most peoples.

3. If you say "God is energy" or something vauge like that, then you can find God in a lump of coal. I remember when my fifth grade teacher said God was in everything; I asked "Is God in cows?" and she said yes, to which I said "If Gods in cows, then is beastiality technically sex with a deity?"


There are many flaws in a God argument, but discuss them via PM if anywhere, not here.

A poll is up and running!!

kobain wrote:A poll is up and running!!

Filth!