talkmagic.co.uk

Let me introduce my question with a quote from Tarbell:

" To express yourself effectively, words are important. Study your language well and its proper use. Imagine if Thurston had come out on the stage and said "Dese, dem and dose". People expect a magician to be to be educated in the magic of words and phraseology as well as his mysteries."

I studied English as a foreign language, many years ago, and feel I am no longer improving. Worse, my level of expression is deteriorating, since I no longer live in your country. I had to write a short piece recently and was surprised by the amount of grammatical errors I made. I was also disappointed by the heaviness of my writing. It seems my inner voice needs a lot of work and polishing.

I decided to remedy this, and I thought I would ask for advice on this board, since many of you are either used to speak in public, or make a living from writing.

My current line of thought is this: go and study Grammar, Logic and Rhetorics, and at the same time take some public speaking classes. I'm lucky to have a Toastmaster's club next door to me, so that's one down, three to go.

For the rest, I'm looking for good, solid references. I've just bought "Classical Rhetorics for the Modern student" (Corbett&Connors), and "Introduction to Logic" (Gensler). They seem to be "industry standard"?

But I don't know where to start with Grammar. The basic grammar books for foreigners are too simple, and at the other "technical " end of the spectrum, much too obscure.

What is the grammatical bible for English writers? Which book do you use in creative / technical writing classes in university? Could you recommend a reference with lessons and exercises?

This doesn't address style at all, should I assume that this is one thing that you either have or you don't?

Your french buddy - who need to improve the way he talk.

LP.

You talks good.

But what are you trying to achieve? Logic is about the truth value of linguistics statements, Rhetoric is about persuading people (and good rhetoric is designed to be a 'trojan horse' in its imitation of the structure of logical statements- for example, it's easy to notice that in the 'Milton Model' of NLP). Both of these assume a relativley decent grasp of language from the begining so I fail to see how this would help you in your aims.

As for Grammar, it seems mostly concerned with the written word rather than the spoken word. This is a tradition which goes back to Alexander III in his studies of the ancient Greek works and his formulation of 'correctness' on the standard of Athenian texts. This 'prescriptive' attitude is adopted by grammarians, who for the english language especially, seem to have the very orthodox belief that English 'correctness' should be judged by the standards of Latin. Latin conjugation led to such ridiculous and superflous grammar rules as the 'split infinitive' where it is supposedly 'incorrect' to say 'I went to furiously punch the Etonian Grammarian in the face' and correct (morally, too) to say 'I went to punch furiously, the Etonian Grammarian in the face'.

If your desire to improve your English skills- which are fine by the way- has any relation to magic, then I fail to see how studying the grammar of punctuation will help you! Besides, we have spell checks and computers which, if you need them to, will check and correct your grammatical errors for you.

Perhaps I am tainted by my passionate hatred for 'Grammar Nazis' and for Grammar in general; It has a history of being related to the upper classes and in general I tend to have a passionate hatred for them, too (typically, they exist at an expense to other 'classes'). But I a) Don't see massive benefit in the study of grammar and b) Prefer linguistics which is more 'descriptive'.

I used to love absorbing languages. There is much satisfaction to be found when someone swears at you in another country because they don't think you understand what they are saying! But if there is one thing which I learned from then, is that the best way to learn is from absorbing yourself in the language, reading lots, reading the dictionaries and grammar guides (Yes... I know, I know... But understanding grammar is important for understanding how a language manifests Syntactic structures, understood by natives).

By all means study rhetoric and logic, they are very interesting. But what do want to acheive?

Since you already use English very well, studying advanced grammar won't do you much good, unless you're interested in grammar for its own sake. Style and usage guides would be more helpful. They'll also give you all you need to know in the way of rhetoric, since good English is always straightforward and direct, whether it's written or spoken.

The three main style guides that editors (and writers) live by are:

Fowler's Modern English Usage
(first written by Fowler in 1926 as A Dictionary of Modern English Usage, since edited by other people, but still called Fowler's)
Fowler was one of the first to promote a vigorous, straighforward way of writing and speaking. It's very readable and rather witty. It's updated fairly often, so if you get the latest version it will show modern recommendations for usage.

Usage and Abusage by Eric Partridge
This book was written in 1947 and sets a very high and prescriptive standard for the educated person to follow. Parts of it are now slightly outdated, but it's still an excellent reference. Partridge is a good clear writer and not as stuffy as you might fear, with some flashes of wit.

Plain Words by Sir Ernest Gowers
(full title The Complete Plain Words)
This one is from 1954, and was originally two booklets written for the Civil Service to help them write plain clear English. Again, it's slightly outdated in parts, but is still a good guide.

They're all widely available in paperback. It's not a bad idea to have all three, so you can see where they agree and disagree.

Editorial style isn't quite the same as personal writing (or speaking) style, of course. That's more your voice, the way your own personality comes through in what you say.

Joining the Toastmasters should give good practice in public speaking. I was offered membership when I was a teenager -- didn't want it then, but now I wish I'd taken them up on it.

If you ever want to chat about language, writing, editing, or proofreading, feel free to PM me!

SamGurney wrote: I a) Don't see massive benefit in the study of grammar and b) Prefer linguistics which is more 'descriptive'.

By all means study rhetoric and logic, they are very interesting. But what do want to acheive?

I want to be able to structure an argument, a presentation or a routine in a way that makes people want to listen, and helps them grasp quickly what I mean. And if that can sound nice and flow well, then all the better

My favorite magician is Edward Norton in the Illusionist.

Robbie wrote:studying advanced grammar won't do you much good, unless you're interested in grammar for its own sake.

No, not at all, I'm only interested in studying it if it will help me improve my writing and speaking skills.

Robbie wrote: Style and usage guides would be more helpful. They'll also give you all you need to know in the way of rhetoric, since good English is always straightforward and direct, whether it's written or spoken.

Thank you very much for the references I'll take your advice and look at style and usage guides instead then.

I presume these do not contain practice exercises?


Thanks a lot Sam and Robbie, it was very kind of you to help!

May I suggest that the best way to keep your language skills up to date (they seem very good to me) is to read English books. Both the classics and more modern ones.
And nothing beats Toastmasters. I have been a member for several years, and really benefited from it.

you could try watching english films with english subtitles too, regional accents and slang may help give you a wider view of how the english communicate...

then you'll hear the differences between the written word and pronounciation...

and with all the advice given already, dont try and flatten out all quirks you may have with english - as we normally find that quite endearing and charming...

Le Petit Bateleur wrote:What is the grammatical bible for English writers? Which book do you use in creative / technical writing classes in university? Could you recommend a reference with lessons and exercises?

I recommend The Elements of Style (Strunk and White). It is the bible of professional sub-editors everywhere.

However, that's all well and good for the written work but you want Rhetoric! That's another kettle of fish... Writing correctly, avoiding those pesky split infinitives etc, is lovely but engaging an audience is something else.

Some of the funniest comedians I know do not have English as their primary language but speak it (badly) using common slang etc. For some reason this makes them easier to listen to, and funnier, IMHO. They'd fail a grammar test, though.

I agree with almost everybody here. Unless you're doing formal writing, don't worry too much about grammar (there's a good number of rules that just don't make sense anymore and nobody follows them). Styleguides are a good way to learn real world usage though (the only one I have to add is the BBC News one, which I tend to follow when possible), and the grammar girl podcast is a good listen

I really like Iain's advice, though

No, you won't find practice exercises in the style guides. They're purely reference works. But the other suggestions -- reading books, watching movies, etc. -- will do more practical good than working through exercises.

Strunk & White's Elements of Style is a widely used American guide. Many US newspapers and magazines use it to define their house style, and US writers are often encouraged to read it. By all means get a copy if you wish, especially if you're interested in American English.

There are other house-style guides available. A lot of UK publishers use Hart's Rules or The Times Style Guide. The other big American guide is The Chicago Manual of Style.

I was trying to stay away from house-style guides and stick to the wider picture. House style varies a lot from place to place, and you can get bogged down in questions like "is this particular word hyphenated or not" or "do I put a comma in or leave it out" -- when in fact both options are perfectly fine.

The main UK textbook and reference guide for editors is Judith Butcher's Copy-Editing. There's also a newer book, Barbara Horn's Copy-Editing, which I know has exercises. But these are really for learning professional editing, and a lot of the contents are irrelevant for non-editors. They're also rather expensive because they're specialist books.

The Separated By a Common Language blog is mainly about the differences between UK and US English, but there are lots of interesting nuggets to be found there. Recently there was a long discussion about the present perfect tense.

Robbie wrote:Strunk & White's Elements of Style is a widely used American guide. Many US newspapers and magazines use it to define their house style, and US writers are often encouraged to read it. By all means get a copy if you wish, especially if you're interested in American English.

It's also used widely in the UK. There's not much difference between correct English in the UK and in the US. They just spell a few things wrong

Robbie wrote:I was trying to stay away from house-style guides and stick to the wider picture. House style varies a lot from place to place, and you can get bogged down in questions like "is this particular word hyphenated or not" or "do I put a comma in or leave it out" -- when in fact both options are perfectly fine.

Oh of course. I just agree with BBC's ways of doing things so in my eyes it's right and shouldn't be questioned