talkmagic.co.uk

I'm looking for some pointers.

I am at the stage where I want to get some experience of performing close-up to strangers. I am quite capable of creating a solid bunch of 10 minute sets but I'm not nearly good enough yet to think about charging. I'm looking for experience for the sake of confidence, timing, damage control and banter.

It is often mentioned that pubs are good places to get started, so...

Is it just a case of asking permission to work the tables from the staff/land-person?
Should I look the part or keep it casual at this stage?
Should I tell the punters I'm just an amateur trying stuff out or do I try to keep it looking professional and hope I pull it off every time?
What happens if I am offered a tip?
How does one approach a table effectively?
Anyone have any good ice breakers?
Etc...

Generally, I'd like some ideas on how to make this a smooth, productive and fun thing. I'd be glad of any stories of how some of you conquered this stage yourselves?

Cheers!
Dave

The only answers I can give are from my experience

Pubs in student areas or student clientele will be more likely to say yes

Make sure they have an outdoor area. As people are more open to talk to strangers outside than in. Also noise levels inside might make it hard to work.

Keep it casual, dress as you would normally dress, learn to sell who you are then work your character around it.

Don't bring up amateur or pro magician most of the people won't know or care what the difference is.

If your offered a tip take it, If it's about asking for money check with the manager and no one will mind if the tips are in drinks. Just remember your not there to make money don't turn down a chance to perform.

Approaching a table effectively requires practice and instinct, you will fail a few times no matter what happens. Just go up to a table and ask if anyone wants to see some magic. No matter what, responses will be tepid at best, it's your first trick thats got to impress them. When you fail, just try again.

Always check with the staff first before you do anything, just be friendly, explain that you're just starting out and want some real people to practice on and aren't after any money. I did this quite a few times and never had any problems.

Instead of approaching tables, try getting people to approach you. Easiest way is to perform a little something for the barmaid (not if it's a busy place though). I'll guarantee, that'll get the attention of a couple of people at the bar. Ask them if perhaps they'd like to see something, keep an eye out for anyone watching you from afar, they'll always be some. When you spot them, invite them over or go over to them when you've finished where you are.

But the most important thing, be friendly with everyone.

Good luck

I know a couple of publicans, and one thing they hate is magicians coming into their pubs and disturbing their customers. I know most of us here (me excepted) don't see our magic this way, but that's the way bar owners see it. And they are the people who might potentially employ us some day.

Magicians tend to assume that their magic adds to the atmosphere in a pub or club. But if that were true, the management would have hired a magician. Think it through.

My opinion is that you should avoid bars until you are invited in as a paid performer. Otherwise you run the risk of getting the reputation locally as a pain in the *rse. I'm sorry if that's harsh, but I have heard very good performers described that way by bar owners.

I would start doing stuff when I am out with a group of friends. If you are good, others will spot it and want to see more. That's your cue to start performing. But if it's not working you can put the cards away and enjoy the night anyway.

Also, what about queues? The new Harry Potter movie is coming soon. Walk up and down the queue doing tricks. No one will complain because you are not in their venue. The people in the queue will love the distraction. You will find queues around nightclubs, christmas sales, etc.

On tips, don't ask for them. But if someone pushes one on you, accept it with a gracious smile. They wouldn't have dug into their pockets unless they felt you were worth it. Good luck.

TonyB wrote:I know a couple of publicans, and one thing they hate is magicians coming into their pubs and disturbing their customers. I know most of us here (me excepted) don't see our magic this way, but that's the way bar owners see it. And they are the people who might potentially employ us some day.

Very true, recently I went round to my local restaurants and pubs to see if they would consider hiring me to perform on slower nights. One place told me that they had a small but regular clientele and didn't want to risk putting people off. I accepted their reasons without question, but it never hurts to ask. This is why I said student bars will be more open to it.

TonyB wrote:Also, what about queues? The new Harry Potter movie is coming soon. Walk up and down the queue doing tricks. No one will complain because you are not in their venue. The people in the queue will love the distraction.

It worked for Jerry Sadowitz, he even made money doing it.

These are exactly the sort of tips I need. Thank you all.

I completely see what you mean about the "local pain in the backside". I think there is still a window for it though since the city has an bajillion pubs over a wide area. I think I need to learn how to tell a suitable opportunity and never outstay my welcome.

Bar gardens are good idea but I'll need to wait 4 or 5 months to start that as it is freezing and usually raining in Edinburgh.

I am new to the area so I don't go out that much since I don't know anyone. The performing for cinema queues is a cracking idea though!

The question about receiving tips was more to do with if I am allowed to accept them in someone else's establishment, rather than about me wanting to make money from it. I'd be daft to pursue money at this stage and I wouldn't even dream of asking for tips. I wouldn't say no if offered one though!

Can you suggest any more places/opportunities suitable by chance?
The more I have the more likely I will find regular spots and the better I will get.

Also, let's say you do a great demo to the barmaid/staff but no one takes the bait. You obviously can't tie up her time so where do you go from there?

Again. Thank you.

Just to clarify one thing. There are some pubs, with the right mix of regulars, for which magic is right. Not all publicans hate magic. But a lot do, so bear it in mind when approaching venues. I don't mean to be completely negative.

TonyB wrote:Just to clarify one thing. There are some pubs, with the right mix of regulars, for which magic is right. Not all publicans hate magic. But a lot do, so bear it in mind when approaching venues. I don't mean to be completely negative.

I understand and I'll be careful. Since more confidence is one of the things I intend to get out of this, I shall certainly be scoping out my chances first due to my lack of it.

Personally, i've made it a point to speak to the owner of the bar\pub and make a few things clear.

no money\tips will ever be involved. i never accept a drink either. and no one will be interupted or bothered.

I do this for the pubs we use for tm meets too, so if anyone comes along to one and i see you ask for money or freebies, then i wont be too happy.

magicians and mentalists have bad enough reputations at times as it is.

be polite, show bar staff fun bar bets that they can learn. be nice and be honest.

having professional pride and being gracious is important to all of us no matter what our performance level may be.

being open and respectful goes a long way. if its for practice purposes-catch the eye of someone, be nice and friendly. introduce yourself-don't circle around like a vulture.

I like Ian's response. I would never take tips because that is how the waitstaff make the bulk of their income you don't want them pi**ed off. If a tip is 'forced' I would hand it off to the waitperson of that table.

I also would not start in pubs. There is too much going on and if you blow it now how will you be hired in the future.

More communication the better. An example of why not to just go into a pub and start performing is that here in the States reps from beverage companies also frequent the pubs trying to sell their particular brand of brew. I bring this up because often they are a pain for the managers to deal with and if you just show up when they are there, now they have even more going on. If you speak to them first and set up a schedule so they know who is in their establishment.

Always keep in mind, pubs sell drinks, anything and anybody who is not contributing to that endeavour is costing the pub money.

To get in to the pub restaurant I now work in regularly I approached the manager and asked if I could do table hopping one evening. I did it free of charge and just so that he could see if it worked in his place.

I did OK and 2 plus years later and two new managers later I am still there evey week.

There are some golden rules I never break.

Never interfere with what the staff need to do. People have come in for a drink and / or a meal not to see a magician. You are at best the icing on the cake, never the cake itself.

Never take tips. Good reasons have been given above but from my viewpoint again the customer has not come in to see a magician. If he enjoys the experience it should add to his enjoyment of the pub not add to his costs in the pub.

If the customer is not keen to see you make a polite and rapid withdrawal, do not try to persuade. Occaisionally a table turns me away. If I then work the next table I regularly find the group who turned me away craning to see what is going on. If there is any chance of getting back in that is it.

Never approach a table where people are eating. Always move away, even if the trick is unfinished, if food arrives when you are there.

Avoid obvious drunks. Basic but really important.

Do not approach tables where a couple are holding hands, looking deeply in to each others eyes and talking. Exceedingly basic advice but in my early days a mistake I made.

If you go down well at a table, always, always, always leave a businss card. I am useless at this and am frequently berated by my wife because of it.

When you finish at a table always thank people for their time and wish them a good day / evening / meal, whatever.

I love table hopping in pubs, you get great audiences there. You just have to take in to account where you are, what people have primarilly come in for and the fact that they are not all gagging to watch a magician. We love our art, some people also love it, some people don't have an opinion and worse still some unelightened people actually find us boring and not entertaining.

Enjoy yourself and make sure that everyone you perform for enjoys you too.

This is a massive subject that I could talk about for ages.

I go into a bit of detail on this on my DVDs and also a fair bit in my lecture, this is something I find very important when performing.

I will come on here in more detail when I get time.

Lee.

In response to what Iain and Johnny said about tips.

Remember Daves not doing this to get regular work he's doing it to get experience performing to people.

In the situation Daves in, it would be polite to accept a tip. He's not there in any official capacity he's mingling with the customers, he's interacting with them socially.
When someone offers a tip (usually a drink) in this context they're not paying you they're being appreciative. It's less 'I owe you money' and more 'Thats great let me buy you a drink'
I'm not saying he should ask for payment I'm saying he should accept freely given shows of generosity.

If your worried about getting drunk then just accept soft drinks, If your worried about taking money just tell them your not allowed to take money but they could buy you a drink.

Also Dave you should check the local pubs now anyway, some outdoor places have heaters, or some places might be good inside. As a consistent chain smoker I know you can get pretty comfortable outside.

Perhaps I should explain how I approached this when I was young and enthusiastic.

I would do magic everywhere and anywhere. On the bus, on the train, in the bowling alley, at school, in a youth club, on the street corner. I think this is the reason I got so good. To this day I believe it is my DUTY to perform impromptu close up magic if anyone wishes to see it. I do it for no money whatsoever. I don't even think about money although once in a while some financial benefit comes from it.

Now I am not saying that anyone else should emulate me in my mission to perform here, there and everywhere, especially when they get older and more inhibited. In fact some professional magicians would recoil in horror at the very suggestion they perform for people without seeing any money for it. I am different and have different motivations. Doing this is the very reason I took up magic in the first place. Nelson Downs, Leipzig and others never let anyone forget they were magicians and would do magic impromptu at every chance they got. And they never earned a penny for it.

But here is the difference. I would never in a million years approach people. No. They would have to ask me. Once they did, for some reason within minutes a large crowd would form round me and I would be performing for hours on end. I had a large reperoire in those days and even when people had had enough new people would show up and I would simply continue.

I was doing this daft so called "street magic" before David Blaine was even born. I never approached anyone. I didn't have to. What would happen in actual practice is that I would frequent certain places that I had already performed at and one of the regulars would greet me and ask me to show them something. And then it would start all over again. People would freak out at the magic and go and call their friends over.

I would never ask permission to do this at the places I frequented. Asking permission for other people to approach me sounded a trifle daft so I never bothered. And of course asking permission encourages people to refuse. In actual practice the staff of these places would freak out at the magic just as much as anyone else and 90% of the time they would let me be.

On the odd occasion the management would get a bit fed up with the crowds I was gathering but as I stated 90 percent of the time they let me get on with it because everyone was raving about how good I was. I do remember the time when I started this caper at a bowling alley and they were quite used to me doing this sort of thing since I had been a regular there and had done it many times before. However one day it got too much for them and they made an announcement over the loudspeaker thus "would the gentleman from the magic circle stop for a little while so that our bowlers could resume their games!" I did stop for a while but continued later and of course they just shrugged their shoulders.

Ah- the folly of youth.......................

But I got good doing this. I am a very powerful performer working impromptu and I am still doing the same bloody tricks I did 50 years ago. I learned how to handle hecklers and in fact learned how to manipulate people as well as manipulate the cards. The only way to get good is to perform here, there and everywhere and not necessarily for money. In fact when you perform for money it is a more challenging situation and in fact a lot tougher.

So how did I get people to ask me in the first place? I haven't the energy to tell you but I did explain it on here many moons ago. Seek and ye shall find.

I might explain later if I find the energy.

Iain -
It is good to have rules. It means you have an evolving code of conduct that becomes second nature after a while, rather than blagging it every time. I think I would probably accept a drink as it means they are spending money in the establishment and that helps the owners but tips are obviously a no no.

The point of professional pride and being gracious is a good one too. I'd like to think I would have naturally provided those things and I'm used to being a pleasant conversationalist and talking to crowds.

bmat -
I used to work in a pub when I was younger and know what you mean about the annoyances you get. It is a good point to remember though and as long as I don't go there when it is busy and don't approach a manager for long or while they look engaged, I stand a much better chance. I think I am confident with maintaining a professional but pleasant/fun persona and can recognise the signs of an agitated staff member enough to know when I need to pack it in. This is why I suggested pubs in the first place to be honest. I fully accept it could go wrong but I think I will learn from it and wont damage my local rep much doing it.

Johnny Whizz -
Those rules seem like excellent advice and yes, outstaying ones welcome is something I'll trying to avoid. Knowing that the performer is there to pass a little time for the customer while the highlight of their visit, the food, is being prepared is definitely something I need to keep in mind.

Jean -
Drinks are definitely the way to go if offered. Due to the vast amount of pubs in travelling distance, I think I'd be better jumping on a bus and going slightly further away to begin with so I am not causing problems locally. I'll see what their beer gardens are like.

Mark -
I think "So how did I get people to ask me in the first place?" is definitely the thing that preys on my confidence the most.

Knowing that once I have found a potential spot, finding a way to break the ice is the confusing part that adds doubt to me just getting up and doing it.

I'll search for your other thread regarding it. If you happen to remember what the title of the thread was, that would be very useful as it's a bit of a needle in a haystack.


Cheers all! I really appreciate the help.

If I can make a solid plan to take me to a pre-determined spot/s, gain all relevant permission and know a few ways I catch peoples attention... I'm quite sure the rest will be more natural to me and will mean I can start gathering experience. I just need to figure out those attention grabbers.