talkmagic.co.uk

Like many others I'm pretty much a strict cardician with the odd dabble in other misc. tricks.

Often cards are talked down upon by other magicians as 'safety'.This is very true but there is a reason I personally dont like doing false transfers,loads,palms etc and this video is an example

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XT5zXxTGPcU

Don't get me wrong,the camera work this his trickery no justice but if he was showing a crowd of keen eyed hand burners,he would by no means get away with this.

A DL however is undeniably angle proof and get's a powerful reaction.

Just my genuine opinion.Feel free to take the p*&s out of me by all means

I am sorry, not because I disagree with you, but because I don't think you could be anymore wrong. First off I am betting you have never seen John Carney perform live because he is actually much better live and it doesn't matter how keened eyed a hand burner is. Magicians like John Carney and Albert Goshman and a whole host of others watch the spectators and like good poker players they adapt to them. And they get away with so, so incredibly much.

Double lifts, while maybe angle proof are usually done really badly, much worse than a retention vanish.

A sleight never gets a 'reaction' unless they are done really badly. Then the reaction is "I saw that!" A sleight that gets no reaction is a sleight that is done well. The effect is what gets the reaction, not the move that allowes it to happen. How can one react to something that they are not supposed to know is there? unless of course they know it is there?

To the spectator there is no difference between a double back card or a secret turn over.

I don't think very many magicians regard card magic as 'safe' most magicians down play card magic because it is bascially all the same and they are tired of it. Of course to the spectator (and a good performer) the effects are different and entertaining. (spectators love card magic. Its only magicians that whine about it).

Don't get me wrong. I love card magic. Card magic is what I do. But a good retention vanish or false transfer is every bit as 'angle proof' as a DL. And good use of a retention vanish, or false transfer, or secret load gets just as good a response as a card effect done well. It is all in performance.

Perhaps you would enjoy using palms, transfers, etc if you practiced them and learned to perform with them. Perhaps, just perhaps that would enable you to expand your repetoire and make you an even better performer than you already are.

Learn to palm, it will take your card magic to a whole new level.

This is less about Card magic and more about how the guy is just bothered at how he didn't do some awesome new card trick.

The thing he fails at understand is that with TV there is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that not even the most experienced performer can control.

I was reading an interview by Max Maven awhile back and he mentioned that when you appear on TV or a talk show. You CANNOT be 2-5 seconds over time. Everything you do HAS to be on time otherwise your whole segment will just be cut. Which is most likely why Carney went with the quick chop cup-esqe routine. Being that it's different that everybody else and it can be done quickly and not take too much time, that is usually used for other things on a talk show and for advertisers.

As for Card Magic being a safe bet. It is and it isn't. Often time's it doesn't work too well on TV for obvious reasons. IE: revealing a thought of card to one person and trying to wow a studio audience with it is a bit impossible to do.

Card magic also tends to work a lot better when it well structured and when the person doing it is interesting and entertaining without the deck.

Learn to palm, it will take your card magic to a whole new level.

Yes, yes, yes.

I think the issue, is that some magicians certainly look down on card magic, because it's popular. They think somehow they are taking a higher ground by being different, 'Oh I don't do card magic!'

For me, it's what I started with and what I know best. When I perform, I will most likely include a card effect / routine alongside other effects. Not always, but mostly. I also have a routine where I say, 'Magicians are famous for doing card tricks, but this one is a little different.'
I am aware that many similar card tricks can be repetitive to an audience, so I vary their style if performing more than one.

bmat wrote:I am sorry, not because I disagree with you, but because I don't think you could be anymore wrong. First off I am betting you have never seen John Carney perform live because he is actually much better live and it doesn't matter how keened eyed a hand burner is. Magicians like John Carney and Albert Goshman and a whole host of others watch the spectators and like good poker players they adapt to them. And they get away with so, so incredibly much.

Double lifts, while maybe angle proof are usually done really badly, much worse than a retention vanish.

A sleight never gets a 'reaction' unless they are done really badly. Then the reaction is "I saw that!" A sleight that gets no reaction is a sleight that is done well. The effect is what gets the reaction, not the move that allowes it to happen. How can one react to something that they are not supposed to know is there? unless of course they know it is there?

To the spectator there is no difference between a double back card or a secret turn over.

I don't think very many magicians regard card magic as 'safe' most magicians down play card magic because it is bascially all the same and they are tired of it. Of course to the spectator (and a good performer) the effects are different and entertaining. (spectators love card magic. Its only magicians that whine about it).

Don't get me wrong. I love card magic. Card magic is what I do. But a good retention vanish or false transfer is every bit as 'angle proof' as a DL. And good use of a retention vanish, or false transfer, or secret load gets just as good a response as a card effect done well. It is all in performance.

Perhaps you would enjoy using palms, transfers, etc if you practiced them and learned to perform with them. Perhaps, just perhaps that would enable you to expand your repetoire and make you an even better performer than you already are.

Learn to palm, it will take your card magic to a whole new level.

Just to set it straight.I can do a perfect palm and often walk around with palmed cards anyways and no one ever sees anything.I rarely use it in my work because i feel self conscious about it so i generally am quick with it and do a card to pocket quicky with it.I even pull up my sleeves with the palmed card.I guess I always fear of someone saying to me ''whats in that hand?''.As I'd get that a lot when practicing on my family.I don't think I could ever recover my pride if I was caught doing a false transfer and someone said ''It's in that hand''.

Once again I'm not bashing the magician himself.Heck,he did everything right and was still caught out which is my point exactly.

When I say double lifts are effective I dont mean the sleight itself but a means to an effect that provokes a great reaction.I thought this was an obvious point

I don't think I could ever recover my pride if I was caught doing a false transfer and someone said ''It's in that hand''.

Its happened to all of us at some time or another.

Flood wrote:

bmat wrote:I am sorry, not because I disagree with you, but because I don't think you could be anymore wrong. First off I am betting you have never seen John Carney perform live because he is actually much better live and it doesn't matter how keened eyed a hand burner is. Magicians like John Carney and Albert Goshman and a whole host of others watch the spectators and like good poker players they adapt to them. And they get away with so, so incredibly much.

Double lifts, while maybe angle proof are usually done really badly, much worse than a retention vanish.

A sleight never gets a 'reaction' unless they are done really badly. Then the reaction is "I saw that!" A sleight that gets no reaction is a sleight that is done well. The effect is what gets the reaction, not the move that allowes it to happen. How can one react to something that they are not supposed to know is there? unless of course they know it is there?

To the spectator there is no difference between a double back card or a secret turn over.

I don't think very many magicians regard card magic as 'safe' most magicians down play card magic because it is bascially all the same and they are tired of it. Of course to the spectator (and a good performer) the effects are different and entertaining. (spectators love card magic. Its only magicians that whine about it).

Don't get me wrong. I love card magic. Card magic is what I do. But a good retention vanish or false transfer is every bit as 'angle proof' as a DL. And good use of a retention vanish, or false transfer, or secret load gets just as good a response as a card effect done well. It is all in performance.

Perhaps you would enjoy using palms, transfers, etc if you practiced them and learned to perform with them. Perhaps, just perhaps that would enable you to expand your repetoire and make you an even better performer than you already are.

Learn to palm, it will take your card magic to a whole new level.

Just to set it straight.I can do a perfect palm and often walk around with palmed cards anyways and no one ever sees anything.I rarely use it in my work because i feel self conscious about it so i generally am quick with it and do a card to pocket quicky with it.I even pull up my sleeves with the palmed card.I guess I always fear of someone saying to me ''whats in that hand?''.As I'd get that a lot when practicing on my family.I don't think I could ever recover my pride if I was caught doing a false transfer and someone said ''It's in that hand''.

Once again I'm not bashing the magician himself.Heck,he did everything right and was still caught out which is my point exactly.

When I say double lifts are effective I dont mean the sleight itself but a means to an effect that provokes a great reaction.I thought this was an obvious point

I know exactly what you meant. And when I make a comment on here it is not just to the original poster, (in most cases) this is a public board and others can learn too. So I took the opportunity to clarify because you might be amazed at how many people don't understand some of the basic principals we are discussing.

Also, watching a magician perform as a magician is a lot different than watching as a spectator.

Back when I was learning to ride a horse I was told you will never ever be really good at it until you have fallen off a few times. I think performing is the same way.

Based on some of your comments I think it would be really good for you to get 'caught out" for the following reasons.

1st you would start to understand that it is a magic trick and not the end of the world. There is a lot worse things in life that could happen.
2nd You would learn how to deal with situations that the world is going to throw at you, and you may even learn to handle them effectivly and with grace.
3rd. When you fall off the horse and get back on your confidence is going to get better not worse. (It is how we learn, and with that knowledge comes power).
4th. Once you learn to handle the inevitable 'mistakes' you will understand that just because you were caught out, doesn't mean the effect or your image is tarnished. (yes there are ways around mistakes).
5th Once you have a few 'mistakes' under you belt you will eventually relax and become an even better than the wonderful and talented performer that you are now.
7th. If you only stick to one genre of magic such as card magic you will never be able to perform a really good show, (not that you may want too, I'm just saying..." the reason being no matter how talented you are if you don't change it up, it is going to get boring.

I can go on, but I'm not going too. Please don't take the above personally. I've never seen you perform, I don't know what pertains to you and what doesn't. I'm trying to say it doesn't always pay to stay 'safe' in this context. If you don't expand, if you don't leave your comfort zone, if you don't strive for what you don't have, how are you going to grow? This is true of life, not just magic.

For me, palming with cards is like the game of Othello. Takes a minute to learn but a lifetime to master kinda thing. Just as I thought I had reached my happy place with palming I started working on sleeving. By focusing practicing on sleeving I was indirectly improving my palming. After that came the phase of being nervous (while performing for others) about palming when the move was my focal point yet I didn't think anything of it when the move was part of a bigger picture like sleeving. I guess what I'm saying is that I learned to palm in two steps. The first was learning the mechanics of various palms. The second was passively improving it by using it in conjunction with another sleight and practicing the two moves as one. Perhaps this approach would help you or others.

Later when I have more time I shall enlighten you has to how to overcome the fear of getting caught. You could probably care less about my input and it's not likely to be earth shattering anyway. I just get a chuckle when mark lewis ends a post in this manner so I'm copycattin' it.

@bmat

Very good points.Can't really disagree with what you've said