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Practice both, one can't happen without the other.
Also do you perform for magicians or lay audience ? if it's for the lay audience then who cares if you stump magicians.
Just something to think about.
It's about entertaining not what sleights you use.
Keep it simple
Tim

firstly the think about ladies was a joke, i thought that was implied by the smiley faces woops.

i do agree that doing a second card deal is harder than a dl, it was just a suggestion to not using dls.

i also said that when my mates do tricks, by luck i see their break or look at their key card etc not that they see my sleights

also my reference to magician fooler is not to some technique which fools magician, i simply mean when the magician does a really clean sleight.

if thats what ascanio said does that mean that both need to be perfect individually or that they need to be perfect together if that makes sense.

lol at getting mr winkle a bit of loving. no again that was a joke, and yes i have fallen in love with craft.

so is the general conclusion what tfeher1 said "It's about entertaining not what sleights you use".

The problem with accepting this is that it means some stuff is pointless to learn like the pass, the second deal, in the sense that there are easier sleights to use ie dl. also saying that how would you then rate a magician, granted that top magicians are good at entertaining and are good at most sleights. how would you rate lesser known magicians, like me and my friends. if i were to be completely critically of myself, id say that they are more entertaining to watch, but dont know any sleights. whereas with me, im entertaining because of the magic if that makes sense. maybe im being too picky but i like to be thorough.

apologises if im extending this post for no reason :>[/quote]

firstly the think about ladies was a joke, i thought that was implied by the smiley faces woops.

i do agree that doing a second card deal is harder than a dl, it was just a suggestion to not using dls.

i also said that when my mates do tricks, by luck i see their break or look at their key card etc not that they see my sleights

also my reference to magician fooler is not to some technique which fools magician, i simply mean when the magician does a really clean sleight.

if thats what ascanio said does that mean that both need to be perfect individually or that they need to be perfect together if that makes sense.

lol at getting mr winkle a bit of loving. no again that was a joke, and yes i have fallen in love with craft.

so is the general conclusion what tfeher1 said "It's about entertaining not what sleights you use".

The problem with accepting this is that it means some stuff is pointless to learn like the pass, the second deal, in the sense that there are easier sleights to use ie dl. also saying that how would you then rate a magician, granted that top magicians are good at entertaining and are good at most sleights. how would you rate lesser known magicians, like me and my friends. if i were to be completely critically of myself, id say that they are more entertaining to watch, but dont know any sleights. whereas with me, im entertaining because of the magic if that makes sense. maybe im being too picky but i like to be thorough.

apologises if im extending this post for no reason :>

This is quite an interesting thread.

To be honest i dont think there is any one answer, certainly none that we're all going to agree on. Who are your favourite magicians who inspire you ? Personally, I like guys like Michael Ammar, David Copperfield, Lance Burton, Paul Daniels and Michael Vincent (to name a few). One of the things that draws me to these guys (speaking in a close-up context) is their flawless sleight of hand. Each of them, while also being masters of misdirection, have a proficiency in sleight of hand that is a thing of beauty. Im not nessasarily talking complicated sleights, even the simplest moves are done suberbly well by these guys.

For me personally sleights are important. And before everyone starts let me explain Yes we must entertain, and yes we must present well. Many times on here when someone lays importance on a move or technique they are told that entertainment is the most important factor, and that the sleight is unimportant. While this is true to an extent, the arguement is flawed. The audience dont just want to be entertained, they want to be entertained with MAGIC. It is the only reason to go and see a magician. Would the Paul Daniels Magic Show have been as succesful if it was just the Paul Daniels Show ? no magic, just paul talking for forty minutes with the odd joke. I dont think it would. Folk didnt tune in every week to be entertained by Pauls rantings, they watched to be entertained by him presenting magic.

So for me the effects and sleights are important. Entertainment of course plays a large part, it goes without saying. But the magic is important too, otherwise it can become trivialised. I choose to work very hard on my moves. I want them to be smooth, invisible and done with precision. Many may not agree with me here and think it unessesary, and thats ok, we each have our own vision of how magic should be.

Of course there are moves that simply must be done well. Alot of the visual stuff falls into this category. Take something like ''spellbound'' or the usual way of doing the ''Erdnase Colour Change''. It would be a bit of a waste to do these under cover of misdirection, as the piont of them is for a visual change. So this means the move is made while you are being burned. In these cases your technique is, in my opinion, very important. Watch the average magician doing a spellbound routine, then watch David Copperfield change 3 coins into a lockpick in Escape from Alkatraz. Davids superior technique makes it look like real magic.

So my answer to your original question is both. To truelly exell in magic you must master all the aspects of your chosen field. If you want perfect sleight of hand then go for it, it never done the above mentioned magicians any harm. It wont be easy, but in magic nothing is impossible

jim

What a great thread. I am a little confused by theycallmesuperman firstly misdirection, dl or pass. Surely it is all about presentation. We all are surely aiming to perfect the technical aspects of any effect and that is about our own standards we set ourselves.

When you perform an affect or a routine what is theycallmesuperman purpose it seems from his posts that it is about ego and impressing the girls. If thats the case I have seen some dvd's for that purpose at some magic sores online and ebay. There is also a part two of "The Game" which may help, but I cant comment because I never read the second book.

Back to what most people perform magic for and I would say it is to entertain. So whether you use the DL the Pass, misdirection or any combination of methods is irrelevent. Did you do what you set out to complete the effect cleanly with the conclusion you set out for and were the people watch it entertained the way you wanted to. If you did entertain in the way you meant to then does it matter what method you used as long as it was clean.

If you were not happy with your performance you have either not practiced it enough or have over looked something and need to look at the effect again. We all make mistakes or can overlook something, but being a magician means that it is our job to look for the different scenarios ad work an effect to work in that scenario or only to perform it when the situation is right

Method is a means to an end, practice for perfect is what drives us.

i am not using magic to pick up girls, it was joke. i did say that in my previous post. i dont use magic to pick up girls.

jim what you say makes sense, i wouldnt want to see a magician who was constantly misdirecting us because of a lack of technique. and im not saying i would perform a trick without thoroughly practising a move. however what i do want to know is, if the technique of a sleight is not amazing would you still use it in a performance, or, would you do it well but use misdirection to make sure the deck is not focused on?

yes method is a means to an end, but if i can do a trick which is made simpler by the use of the pass, which is a movie that is hard to master, would it be wise to use the pass in the trick and do it relatively well and use misdirection, or only use the pass if your technique is flawless?

i know im talking about the pass, but this could apply to any sleight, im only focusing on the pass as thats the sleight i was practising when i thought about misdirection over technique.

if anyone says "theycallmesuperman magic is not for picking up girls" i will make you disappear

, if you focus completely on the deck, and we know some people do that, then it would be impossible to do any sleights without being caught.

The idea is to control the audience, not only through pointing and gesture, but attitude, intention, blocking and body movement, scripting (yes what you say can be part of the method). I use all of these, and sometimes still if I have a really awkward spectator, will just perform something else.

As for the pass - what I think people are saying is, if it is the simplest way for that particular routine, then use it, but a lot of the time, it's not necessary.

For colour changes, yes, you want people looking at the deck, so you direct their focus to the deck, by bringing the cards to a suitable height, or even right underneath their eyes, you look at the cards, point to the face card, and say, watch carefully, or something along those lines.

Is any of this advice from us all going in? Magic is amazing, and the more you learn, the more you will see how complicated it's performance is. I do hope it's not just a pick up and throw away sort of thing for you.

hmmmm yeah i am taking on the advice, and i guess that the question i asked is one which is learnt from experience, which i have very little of. ultimately though, there is no shortcut for practice, so even if my misdirection is amazing, it doesnt mean i should do a sleight poorly just because i know i can get away with it, and vice versa.

just to go of topic, a bit more lol, how do you gauge when you would perform a newly learnt sleight. like is there a way of knowing when you're ready to use a sleight in a performance, or is it, after practising you use it and its hit or miss?

theycallmesuperman wrote: ultimately though, there is no shortcut for practice, so even if my misdirection is amazing, it doesnt mean i should do a sleight poorly just because i know i can get away with it, and vice versa.

My thoughts exactly, though many will disagree with us

jim

theycallmesuperman wrote:just to go of topic, a bit more lol, how do you gauge when you would perform a newly learnt sleight. like is there a way of knowing when you're ready to use a sleight in a performance, or is it, after practising you use it and its hit or miss?

IMO, you want to move away from this kind of thinking. Rather than learn a new method and then come up with the effect, start with the desired climax and work your way back. In a kinda sorta apples and oranges analogy, which would make the most sense: You go to the hardware store and purchase a table saw and some lumber, then return home where you unload the truck, go inside and sit down in front of a DIY TV show and wait for inspiration to build... something. -Or- the reverse: having an idea of what to build, purchasing the needed items and then constructing?

Depends on the person. Normally now days I won't buy something unless I can think of an interesting/entertaining presentation for it, and if it doesn't involve me having to be a sleight of hand master. I'm all for being economic and efficient with what I do.

As for when you are ready to perform something, you just know - you practice it a lot - that's the moves and performance, then...

...Here is how I work in new material.

I practice it a lot.
I feel comfortable performing it without mistakes, (may take months or years until it just feel right, to start showing it to people).
I show it to lots of magician friends.
I show it to lots and lots of friends and family.
I add it in to paid work.

jim ferguson wrote: I like guys like Michael Ammar, David Copperfield, Lance Burton, Paul Daniels and Michael Vincent (to name a few). One of the things that draws me to these guys (speaking in a close-up context) is their flawless sleight of hand. Each of them, while also being masters of misdirection, have a proficiency in sleight of hand that is a thing of beauty

So to be great, you need to have both...

I also like all above magicians - legends, and for perfection of misdirection and technique performed simultaneously and flawlessly I would add Lennart Green and Tommy Wonder to the list. Study guys like Tommy, Lennart, and Michael Vincent and you will learn great technique, and also learn the importance of misdirection to support you as you progress to performing the bolder moves.

So my answer would be pretty much do both, all the time!

No harm 'going to buy some wood and a saw' (learning the pass!) either, so long as you do build something nice with it at some point...

I learned to spin a card on my ring finger - no particular reason, then found myself using it after a successful top change as the 'magic spin'.

Watch Tommy Wonders ACR, and look for the Turnover pass - did you see it? Me neither, but it's there! Perfect technique + flawless misdirection = legend

One way to practice your more complicated sleights is to do them even when they are not needed, and are not part of the trick. e.g. do a one handed charlier cut in left hand, and as you bring hands back together pass the two packets back to how they were, just so that you're always practising it - that way when it comes to using it during a trick you think of, it's there in your tool box... The misdirection is the fancy one handed cut, and the flawless pass will be yours just as soon as you've put in enough practice.

Best of luck with it, and for what it's worth, I personally do think that the pass is a very worthwhile sleight to work at, a good tool to have in the box.

Tommy Magic wrote:One way to practice your more complicated sleights is to do them even when they are not needed, and are not part of the trick.

this is how ive been practising my classic force when the selected card doesnt really matter. Its getting there but still needs work.

[quote="theycallmesuperman"]
The problem with accepting this is that it means some stuff is pointless to learn like the pass, the second deal, in the sense that there are easier sleights to use ie dl.
[/q]

Magical Truism No. 1
Spectators don't care how difficult sleights are, they only care about the effect.