talkmagic.co.uk

Craig, I loved the Masked Magician, and he did only good for the art. If you are still in contact you can tell him some of us are right behind him.

Heavy on the Magik wrote:The hard part for any beginner magician is how to find out how to do the tricks you want to perform, without paying 75 quid to discover its some technique you will never be able to master or have no intention of learning.

What would be a better deal is if you can get some kind of hint when you enquire about the trick as to if its worth the money - eg. this trick involves a certain level of sleight of hand - ergo the 50 quid price tag.

Im sitting on a small pile of cash now wondering what to buy with it as there is a lot of interesting stuff i want to try but dont want to waste my money on it until i know i can perform it.

I don't think any beginner should be paying money to purchase tricks from a magic dealer. Magic is best learnt from the numerous decent magic books. Those magic books will all give you many solid decent tricks you can perform and will teach you the all important principles and techniques that you will not learn from buying expensive gimmicked props from magic dealers. You can do a whole magic show without having to buy anything from a magic dealer.

Once you've gained a good knowledge from reading and studying, practicing a performing the magic you have learned from the books you will have a better eye for making decisions on what is a good buy at a magic shop and what is not.

I have to agree with robb: it's money. If I buy a book/trick/lecture note/DVD that's OK. If my nine-year-old best friend shows me on YouTube it's bad. When people come here in post one asking how tricks are done they are sent away. I usually PM them and offer to tell them for money: no one takes me up ...

V.E. Day wrote:

Heavy on the Magik wrote:The hard part for any beginner magician is how to find out how to do the tricks you want to perform, without paying 75 quid to discover its some technique you will never be able to master or have no intention of learning.

What would be a better deal is if you can get some kind of hint when you enquire about the trick as to if its worth the money - eg. this trick involves a certain level of sleight of hand - ergo the 50 quid price tag.

Im sitting on a small pile of cash now wondering what to buy with it as there is a lot of interesting stuff i want to try but dont want to waste my money on it until i know i can perform it.

I don't think any beginner should be paying money to purchase tricks from a magic dealer. Magic is best learnt from the numerous decent magic books. Those magic books will all give you many solid decent tricks you can perform and will teach you the all important principles and techniques that you will not learn from buying expensive gimmicked props from magic dealers. You can do a whole magic show without having to buy anything from a magic dealer.

Once you've gained a good knowledge from reading and studying, practicing a performing the magic you have learned from the books you will have a better eye for making decisions on what is a good buy at a magic shop and what is not.

After spending most of my life as a magic dealer I can tell you, get to know your magic dealer. Most of us are only too happy to give you a heads up. Let us know what your skill level is, let us know what type of magic, your typical conditions etc. The more information about you and your situation the better we can help you.

Here is the thing, most magic shops want your business, (especially those that also have a brick and mortar shop). We are not in it for the one big sale. If that was the case we would not be in business long. We want repeat customers, which means happy customers. We don't want to sell you something you are not ready for or will in no way ever be able to use. Let us know if you don't like thread work, we cannot read minds.

No, in general we will not tell you how an effect is done. Experience as an individual and as a group as taught us that most shop because they don't know how it is done. Once the customer, (you) know how it is done the sale is lost. Remember you are buying an effect. It is like buying a puppy. You never buy a PUPPY. You are buying a DOG! at the moment it might be disguised as a puppy but it's temperment as it grows is going to depend on you, and it will be a dog a lot longer than it is going to be a puppy. Also just because you buy a Steinway piano, doesn't mean you are going to be a great pianist. An effect is only as good as the performer.

Don't be surprised if what you get is a piece of string, two safety pins and a stick of gum and an instruction book. It is what you do with that stuff that makes it a magic trick. I can't tell you how many times I demonstrated an effect in the store, exactly as was on the instructions and amazed my customer. A few days later the customer will come into the shop telling me how stupid the trick is, how it won't fool anybody. My reply was always the same, "The trick is brilliant, the method is stupid, and it fooled the heck out of you so what does that tell you? Now show me how far along you have come and I'll see if I can't give you some pointers"


I think beginners should go to a magic shop. I think every beginner should get a svengali deck, or a stripper deck, nickle to dime effect perhaps a scotch and soda trick. All great effects, all have something to offer and teach, just because an effect has a gimmick doesn't mean you don't learn from it. Very little is self working. Many want to go out and show a trick or two right off the bat they don't want to shift through a magic book. And when they amaze thier friends with a svengali deck they come back looking for more. Then the books start, Mark Wilson's Course in Magic is usually next. (and Mark has a section on gimmicked decks so they are now going to utalize what they own in an upgraded fashion) and that alone is a lesson learned.

Lets face it most magicians out there did not start through books. They started with a magic set, with an uncle who pulled a coin out of their ear. The love and respect of magic will be there with any magician regardless of how they learned, in the end we all end up with the books (dvd's) what have you, and the pile of carp that sits and does nothing in the drawer, (that we love anyway). Most magic is learned through performing because that is where the magic is. Any way to get a budding magician out infront of a spectator is what matters. Everything else will come in time.

Oh and I would never sell a beginner 75 dollars worth of magic gimmicks or even books. In that you are right there is no need to blow the budget. Usually start with a sale that is less than 10 bucks. They will be back. Build it and they will come.

No disrespect Bmat, the magic dealer does a good and important job. But you mentioned the analogy of a Steinway piano. No one with any sense would buy a Steinway piano in order to begin learning to play the piano. The usual and better route is to go some way towards learning to play the piano before you walk into a Steinway dealer. A good knowledge and understanding of the principles of magic and the types of tricks (I would have thought) will lead to a far longer interest in magic, than buying an effect from a magic shop which may eventually end up in a drawer after a brief infatuation.

My understanding is that is the reason why Magic Dealers also sell Magic Books.

Jing

Personally, I don't like the idea of kids picking up magic easily through 'simple giveaway tricks' - svengali decks, magic sets, etc...

I would prefer it if magic was difficult to find out about. It's difficult to do well, and there are too many people who are more concerned with knowing how to do magic, than rather doing it.
I don't like the fact that people can pick up magic, find out a whole bunch of secrets and then throw it away afterwards.

Let the kids do a circus workshop, I say.

And how did you get started into magic?

Don’t tell us that you did as you’re suggesting here, that would be nearly impossible for anyone not raised within or around a show-biz environment where people knew about such rarely produced workshops – Rare because most parents are cheapskates that won’t fork out the kind of cash that is deserved by the “pro” leading the workshops. . . I know, I did my time at Club Med doing exactly this sort of bit a.k.a. serving as a baby sitter under the ruse of teaching the kiddies magic. If you want to be a baby sitter and teach tricks to kids that have an exceptionally short attention span (as do many adults as well), then go for it, but I don’t think you’ll find too many adults willing to waste their time, talent and experience in such a venture; pros do mystery weekend meets, etc. for other serious students of the art, not for Johnny the snot-nosed kid that just saw the Amazing Mr. X on the Tv.

The_Outlaw"

Sometimes exposure can be a good thing i.m.o.
For example;

I was going to pay $19.95 plus shipping and handling for the illusion entitled 'pressure'. I saved myself some cash by researching the illusion online until I eventually found the 'secret' behind the illusion via exposure from a disgruntled buyer on YouTube.

$19.95 for such a simple illusion is highway robbery i.m.o. I'm very happy that I saved that money! =-)

Soooo what you’re saying is that it’s ok to steal from someone that’s done the footwork to research & develop an effect rather than buy the piece (just like most of us have done) and discover that, in your opinion, it’s not so great. . . (though you are still stealing from the creator to learn this "thing" that fooled you initially? The bit that you intentionally sought out to find the secret to vs. buying it, or even contacting the developer and offering some kind of swap deal?)

NEWS FLASH. . . I can give you a very long list of noted individuals that got a bit pi**ed the first time they saw how a Zig Zag worked and thought it “dumb”

I can also show you people that have taken props & gimmicks found in those kiddie magic kits (cheap stuff) and blown the minds of veteran pros that knew their stuff.

Magic only becomes such in the hands of those imaginative and creative enough to turn it into something other than “a Trick” – knowing a method has nothing to do with creating “Magic” and more so, it has nothing to do with “how” a mystery/intrigue is made, the technique behind it, etc.

Regardless... when you consciously seek out the methods, etc. on line, of ANY effect but most especially those that are new to the market and of current popularity, YOU ARE A THIEF! It really is that simple and most especially when discovery of the method is your intent.

Granted, I've got a slight reputation out there that helps, but the majority of developers will consider barters (swaps) should you have material or effects that they have an interest in. Alternately, they might give you a decent discount on the item, but there has to be some kind of HONEST exchange or "agreement" between either party. UNDERSTAND HOWEVER, these people get hit up almost constantly for their stuff, while some of the old timer's tend to be a bit more gracious than the new kids out there, they are picky.

My point is, find ways that are more "fair" when you have a curiosity or contrived "need" for things vs. finding a torrent or pirate site that will allow you the honor of being a thief.


V.E. Day

No disrespect Bmat, the magic dealer does a good and important job. But you mentioned the analogy of a Steinway piano. No one with any sense would buy a Steinway piano in order to begin learning to play the piano. The usual and better route is to go some way towards learning to play the piano before you walk into a Steinway dealer. A good knowledge and understanding of the principles of magic and the types of tricks (I would have thought) will lead to a far longer interest in magic, than buying an effect from a magic shop which may eventually end up in a drawer after a brief infatuation.

My understanding is that is the reason why Magic Dealers also sell Magic Books.

I can understand where you’re coming from with this retort but there is a point in which every serious student of any art MUST get picky and take that next step; discovering that what they originally learned was but the fundamentals and that every aspect of magic (in this case) has a superior device, element, etc. tied to it. When I did big illusions I could get away with using an Abbott made Thin Model Sawing or one of their Crystal Boxes ONLY because I was a decent showman. BUT, at that, I had to accept that my chances of working a major venue using those props was pretty much nil… they weren’t deceptive compared to an Owen, Gaughan or Bill Smith cabinet… they were, by comparison, HUGE. And though I know of some very ancient Abbott props that have endured 50+ years of use, the typical prop cannot hold up to the level of abuse goes through, while those made by the big 3 builders will… trust me, most all of their props are “over-built” in the sense of being solid, dependable & safe.

MAGIC SHOP OWNERS… I’m referring to the old brick & mortar shops that I grew up with, were typically old salts that were no nonsense. Then again, Vernon wasn’t overly abashed about cracking anyone’s knuckles with his want if they “didn’t listen” and kept doing the same move “wrong”. If we reverted back to when Magic was less accessible and the student had to EARN his/her way up through the foundation factors first and then maybe… if they were skilled enough to qualify… they would be ushered into competitions and perhaps, a career.

As I said before, there has to be a primer, which is what the old timers did with their give-away books, the comics, cereal & junk food inserts, etc. It is what lads in the Boy Scouts had access to when it came to earning a Magic and Puppetry merit badge and more (I learned a lot of basic tricks from a 1950’s era Boy Scout manual). This particular cat is out of the bag and cannot be stuffed back in, so WE need to learn how to work with it and TAME it – to curb all of the “exposure” that’s happening with the disgruntled wannabes, file share fools, etc. It’s that simple.

Regarding my previous post - im personally finding it hard to locate books to start with - well, i was till i found this site!

Im my experience it seems very difficult to find out where to get these books from, who to research and what to buy - if i was 20 years younger i would probably be quite annoyed with how long it takes to get answers from shops and people ive emailed and would probably visit exposure sites for the info.

Im finding it more fun to track down hard to get books and find out things that i can use - i do have a problem with being charged a mint for something only to find its not something i want to use. There appear to be no local magic shops or clubs in this area - the clostest being several towns away and i have no transport (i love walking!).

If you want to stop exposure you need to give a little info for smaller routines to entice people into the magic industry, but at the same time having a tighter hold on the larger tricks to stop Joe Public ripping off your routines.

On a side note - i can only find magic books on the web. My local bookshops are rubbish. Most are general retailers - they dont stock "specialist" books. I can however get more copies of What Katie did next than i could ever hope to read.

Heavy on the Magik wrote:On a side note - i can only find magic books on the web. My local bookshops are rubbish. Most are general retailers - they dont stock "specialist" books. I can however get more copies of What Katie did next than i could ever hope to read.

There can be some pleasant surprises, though. I bought Hugard's card encyclopedia from Borders (less than £10, ISTR), and I've bought Nick Einhorn's book as a gift for someone - from a garden centre! The Works can be good, sometimes, too.

I'm OK with exposure to introduce people to magic, but...

Heavy on the Magik wrote:i do have a problem with being charged a mint for something only to find its not something i want to use.

It's not the method that matters, it's what you do and how you do it

For example, someone was after ideas for a routine in the restricted area only earlier tonight, and I gave an idea without any real clue how to do it

If you want to stop exposure you need to give a little info for smaller routines to entice people into the magic industry, but at the same time having a tighter hold on the larger tricks to stop Joe Public ripping off your routines.

It depends on the trick, the method, and the person - there's legal and moral reasons why not, and let's face it some methods are dull and if exposed will make people either shrug or cry (or both)

On a side note - i can only find magic books on the web. My local bookshops are rubbish. Most are general retailers - they dont stock "specialist" books. I can however get more copies of What Katie did next than i could ever hope to read.

I exclusively buy magic books on the web. I have no problem with that, afterall it's a relatively small market and shop owners need to keep their costs down (plus it means I can be lazy and order it when lying in bed on my ipad at 3 in the morning)

Craig Browning wrote:The_Outlaw"

Sometimes exposure can be a good thing i.m.o.
For example;

I was going to pay $19.95 plus shipping and handling for the illusion entitled 'pressure'. I saved myself some cash by researching the illusion online until I eventually found the 'secret' behind the illusion via exposure from a disgruntled buyer on YouTube.

$19.95 for such a simple illusion is highway robbery i.m.o. I'm very happy that I saved that money! =-)

Soooo what you’re saying is that it’s ok to steal from someone that’s done the footwork to research & develop an effect rather than buy the piece (just like most of us have done) and discover that, in your opinion, it’s not so great. . . (though you are still stealing from the creator to learn this "thing" that fooled you initially? The bit that you intentionally sought out to find the secret to vs. buying it, or even contacting the developer and offering some kind of swap deal?)

NEWS FLASH. . . I can give you a very long list of noted individuals that got a bit pi**ed the first time they saw how a Zig Zag worked and thought it “dumb”

I can also show you people that have taken props & gimmicks found in those kiddie magic kits (cheap stuff) and blown the minds of veteran pros that knew their stuff.

Magic only becomes such in the hands of those imaginative and creative enough to turn it into something other than “a Trick” – knowing a method has nothing to do with creating “Magic” and more so, it has nothing to do with “how” a mystery/intrigue is made, the technique behind it, etc.

Regardless... when you consciously seek out the methods, etc. on line, of ANY effect but most especially those that are new to the market and of current popularity, YOU ARE A THIEF! It really is that simple and most especially when discovery of the method is your intent.

Granted, I've got a slight reputation out there that helps, but the majority of developers will consider barters (swaps) should you have material or effects that they have an interest in. Alternately, they might give you a decent discount on the item, but there has to be some kind of HONEST exchange or "agreement" between either party. UNDERSTAND HOWEVER, these people get hit up almost constantly for their stuff, while some of the old timer's tend to be a bit more gracious than the new kids out there, they are picky.

My point is, find ways that are more "fair" when you have a curiosity or contrived "need" for things vs. finding a torrent or pirate site that will allow you the honor of being a thief.

.

So according to you "I am a thief" eh??
Well, then I guess my screen name 'The Outlaw' is very fitting for me.

I think that if someone buys an effect and discovers that it's another effect that has been re-packaged they have the right to review it and explain that this is the case. This doesn't mean that they should expose the method, because doing so automatically exposes the original method.

So for example, if you bought my PBW* for £345.97 (postage free in the UK, add £6.24 for P&P in the rest of the world) it would be fair to review it and say, "This is a rip-off! It's just the standard breakaway wand effect with a lame new presentation."

But it would not be right to then explain how the standard breakaway wand (as sold by innocent dealers) works just because the buyer was grumpy at being conned by me.

All just my thought and opinion, and not the law

T.


* A fictional mentalism prop called the Psychokinetic Breakaway Wand. It allows any member of the public, without any p**-s***, to exhibit psychokinetic abilities, including the clean slicing of wood! It is not on the open market for very obvious reasons.

My two cents, speaking as an audience member rather than a performer: I would suggest that 'exposure' is seen very differently by magicians and spectators. I see myself as somewhat of an outsider, since I don't actually perform magic, but through friends and projects I have been introduced to a large number of workings and methods. However, this does not in any way change my perception of an actual performance.

As has already been said, most secrets can be found plastered over YouTube, which is highly undesirable for those who have something to sell. At the same time, however, I am convinced that you can show a spectator how a DL is done, show him an effect that uses the exact same move a few moments later, ask him how it was achieved and get a wrong answer. To once again invoke P.T. barium, people want to be fooled.

Just to throw this one out there: is this true in your experience? Does exposure matter less when exposed to outsiders than when tricks are given away inside the magic community?

Having spoken to several professional performers at conventions etc the general consensus it that the lay public don't give a flying fez about exposure. Most of them aren't that interested in knowing how something’s done, many won’t remember the method for more than a day or so anyway. Where it does hurt is when unprincipled people copy/steal/rip off other people’s ideas and work and then give it away under the guise of ‘instruction’ or 'sharing'. We’ve covered this theft and piracy aspect many times and the sentiments haven’t changed.

Madelon is so totally right! A while back, I bought my nephew a magic set. Inside it was a TT which everyone found very amusing, what a silly trick, how's that going to trick anyone? Five minutes later I performed some vanishes with a TT, not one person spotted it.

Exposure doesn't matter, out of all the people who see it, only a very small handful are actually going to remember the method. If you make the performance of that method into something a little different, even those few people are unlikely to pick you up on it. I know that I've had a couple of very good magicians get some really simply methods past me before now just because of their performance.

Knowingly ripping off people is a different thing altogether.

Funny you should mention the TT. A few years ago I did a party for my ex-wife's friend's daughter. She had got a magic set as a gift. So I started showing her how to do the tricks.
However neither she nor her mother believed me when I explained what the TT was for. To this day they are probably convinced I was making up stories rather than explaining the real trick.