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I think part of being a professional is about how you are perceived by others who are in the same occupation. I know of some working Magicians who use under hand tactics with other who are trying to help out. Things like emailing other Magicians with a false email account to try and obtain prices so they can undercut them on jobs (which is a stupid thing to do really, because if you think the only way to get work is to undercut then you obviously don’t see yourself as giving any true value!). Things like not paying the commission owed to other Magicians for passing gigs on (which I’ve had a couple of times and instantly the respect is lost, and as a result, no more work goes their way!) things like blatantly copying people’s business models to try and sneak their way through. Things like massively undercutting (I’m talking by 50% or more) just to get the job. As much as these people are working magicians, by no means does it mean they are professional!

So, in that respect, being a working Magician doesn’t necessarily mean you are (or are perceived) as a professional Magician

The very second that you even take one paid gig is the second you are working "professionally"

The moment that you take money means that for that show at least you are a "professional" magician. Even if you never work again for that moment you are a professional.

Mind you, I am not sure that being a full time professional is anything to be proud of anyway. Most of them are bloody starving even if they pretend they aren't.

I am always amused that professional magicians tend to look down on amateurs when the amateurs are probably executives in big companies with 6 figure incomes or rich businessmen or lawyers or doctors. It is often the professional magicians who should be looked down on since 80% of them are living from hand to mouth with uncertain incomes despite outward appearances.

I once was amused to hear a legendary magic dealer tell me that he couldn't stand professional magicians because they always came in to his shop bragging about themselves and he had to listen to it. He amused me greatly by looking down his nose at professional magicians when other performers were looking up at them with admiration.

I won't mention this guy's name because he is still around.

This is an interesting and well behaved thread. Thank you all. May I also ask your opinions on the following. If someone is a working pro - does that automatically mean that they are any good? Its a label afterall - no exam to sit, and as some of you have said, some are living hand-to-mouth. Is it hard to listen to their advice when they are like that?

Isn't it quite easy to "go pro" and still starve?!

Talent, creativity and charisma aren't automatically bestowed upon you as soon as you perform for people.

Guys, the language is quite clear, and we can't bend it to make it mean different things. You are a professional if this is your profession - the majority of your income comes from magic. Its that simple.

If the majority of your income does not come from magic, then magic is not your profession and you are not a professional.

Jim, it has nothing to do with quality. If you are very knowledgable and skilled, you are not a professional. You may be an expert, but you don't become a professional until people pay you.

Of the three worst magicians I know, two are full-time working pros, while the third is a part-timer. Being a professional has nothing to do with quality; it is simply a mark of whether this is how you earn your money or not.

TonyB - if you don't mind me asking, would you class yourself as a working pro? I ask as you also write books don't you.

So to clarify, is it that magic/mentalism/hypnosis - that is PURELY the only means of income, only then does it mean you are a working pro? Or just the majority of it?

I know this is a fairly semantically driven discussion - however, the term is bandied around quite often by people - especially those that still live with their parents or are on benefits. There is no shame in either certainly; however having to make the rent or the mortgage payments takes on a new challenge if you are a "real worker", surely?

It is a little easier if still in the family bosom. And only when that bosom becomes your own does the teat get tougher.

I lost the analogy there - do pardon me.

I have heard this discussion for decades. It can get very cloudy indeed. What about a magic dealer who does the occasional show? Is he a professional magician? Or the magic dealer who doesn't do any shows at all? Or an old age pensioner who supplements his pension by doing shows? He doesn't get many but he has no other source of working income. Is he a professional?

Or a part-time pro who has a well paying job but his part time income is more than that of a full time magician whose fees are less?

The Magic Circle attempted to come up with a definition years ago. They figured that you were a professional if at least 75% of your income came from magic.

I think it is a pointless discussion anyway. Who gives a stuff?

What always confuses me is the term "working pro". How can magic be you proffession is you don't work? [/i]

Duplicity, I have written nine books so far, six of which are published. And between them there is about a year's income. It is nothing more than a hobby. Most writers earn peanuts. That's why you meet so many writers and novelists who have full-time jobs. The writing only pays the few at the top.

Some day I hope to join them, and then I will become a part-time pro (because I will never give up performing). But until then I am a full-time pro, as I have no other source of income.

Thank you Tony. So, as Mark Lewis said - there are people out there who earn very good money in a day job; yet also work as magicians (or whatever else) too. They do it for the enjoyment, the love and also the extra money no doubt. Do you think there is any kind of snobbery within the trade between the working-pro, vs the person who has a dual trade as it were? Is it justified?

Talent is talent afterall, surely? There may well be the most amazing performer locked away in their room right now, who will never perform for anyone - because of crippling self doubt or similar.

I've heard this very same discussion within my other hobby, which is music.

When are you a "professional" musician? In my books, it's when you're making money from music - no matter how much, and regardless of whether you have another job or not.

I get paid to work in an office from Mon-Fri as a professional - I also get paid to play music in various bands as a professional musician. "Working" simply implies if you are physically doing anything - a working professional musician gigs, a non-working professional musician used to gig (or write) and now makes money from royalties or alike.

I'm still very much an amateur magician as I don't perform for money... yet!


Just my thoughts,
G

Since I am now also a distinguished author I am curious to know what other books Tony has got published. I actually own his "Teach Yourself Magic"

Decades ago I had another book with the same title and I think the same publisher. I remember the author was J. Elsdon Tuffs. I can't remember much else about the book.

Actually as I write it has come back to me that it wasn't the same title. I think this one was called "Teach Yourself Conjuring"

Tony's book is better.

Some of the points on this are a bit daft.

The word 'professional' can mean both your job (profession) or someone who is expert - check the dictionary. Many seem to be looking at this the wrong way - money has nothing to do with real professionalism. There are many jobs with folk who make their living from them, but are anything but 'professional'. Take these cowboy builders as an example - they make their living from this (sometimes a very good living) so does that mean they are professional ? In my opinion certainly not. They are only professional if the work is up to a professional standard.

Here is another example - years ago i used to fix and set-up guitars for folk. I never took a penny - they paid for any parts that were needed and I did the work for free. It was just a hobby and I enjoyed doing it. A friend of mine put his guitar into a local music store to get some work done, and paid a handsome price for it. The work was awful. It was left to me to fix the original problem and also the mistakes of the store 'expert'. The guy from the store was getting paid for this but his work certainly wasnt of a professional standard.

In my opinion a professional magician is someone who performs magic to a high standard, and has a professional attitude towards it, regardless of wether he/she is getting paid.

jim

Good point Jim. Which begs the question - there must be an element of cowboy magicians too. Ones who claim to be working all the time, and earning x amount of money. When really, its not strictly the case.

I would say that professionalism is something you display, rather have bestowed upon you. I know lots of people who are lazy in their work. Who do not take pride in whatever they choose to do.

So really, one good quality job a fortnight that pays six to eight hundred quid, or one or two a week at £200-300 vs. someone making £300 a month via a percentage of the door, and making the rest up in benefits or another job; does it really matter?

Sometimes "working pro" is a label to beat others who you deam are beneath your own status. Which therefore in fact, reveals your own ego and nothing more.

Probably the best way to figure this out is that one day you will wake up and say, "Gee! I must be a professional magician" When that happens you will be.

I bet you all remember the day you realised "My goodness! I am actually a magician!" And you were.

Same thing. One day you will realise you are a professional. And you will be.

You won't have to come to talkmagic to figure it out.

Mark, you are doing great things for my ego!
Jim, I have to disagree with you. To my mind being a professional is about being paid. Being an amateur is about doing it for no money. That is the common understanding of the word across just about every sector of society.
We would like professionals to perform to a certain standard, and many do. But some don't. However that is irrelevant; if they are being paid, they are professional.
I know amateurs who perform to extremely high standards. I often turn to them for advice. But they are amateurs - they do it for reasons other than money.
There is no disrespect intended in my attitude. It is just that is the way the words are used. Professional is someone who does this as his profession, amateur is someone who does it for the love of it. Different motivations and different words used to describe what they do.
Jim, when you were fixing guitars you were an expert doing a great job. But would you really have called yourself a professional instrument repairman? I don't think so. You become a professional when money enters the picture.