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magical jon wrote:I don't think anyone actually makes a living as a working pro in the UK.

Complete rubbish, Jon. There are hundreds of us out there who make our sole income from performing magic. I know dozens.

magical jon wrote:I don't think anyone actually makes a living as a working pro in the UK.

Oh dear...

Although I'm not a professional, I would consider myself perhaps semi-pro or an 'aspiring pro' as magic is the only way I make money but I only do it part time.

Oh, and whoever said no-one earns their full income from magic in UK, two words...Derren...Brown, Most obvious example of you being wrong I can think of

OK so richard bellars, lee smith, derren brown, mark waddington and a few more.
Well done guys if you can do it. I like the security of my £23k a year job thank you very much! I don't think I would make even half that from magic if I went pro (which a lot of people say I should do)

magical jon wrote:OK so richard bellars, lee smith, derren brown, mark waddington and a few more.
Well done guys if you can do it. I like the security of my £23k a year job thank you very much! I don't think I would make even half that from magic if I went pro (which a lot of people say I should do)

It's not a few more. It's several hundred more, at a very conservative estimate. And we are earning a lot more than your £23k. If you don't know what you are talking about, why pretend?

TonyB wrote:

magical jon wrote:OK so richard bellars, lee smith, derren brown, mark waddington and a few more.
Well done guys if you can do it. I like the security of my £23k a year job thank you very much! I don't think I would make even half that from magic if I went pro (which a lot of people say I should do)

It's not a few more. It's several hundred more, at a very conservative estimate. And we are earning a lot more than your £23k. If you don't know what you are talking about, why pretend?

If you dont think you could make £11500 a year performing magic then I strongly suggest you stick to your day job,even at £23000 its only about 60-70 gigs per year.

This comment will probably start quite a long thread regarding prices but this is a rough guide as to the average 2hr close up event.

Quite right Tony there are hundreds of full time pros out there and plenty on this forum, but there are also quite a few that are struggling to make a decent living from it.


Deano

When I recommend magicians to any of my agents the first thing they ask is "Are they pros" i.e. do they have a day job or do they just entertain for a living.

This is very relevant in this business, if you get gigs which require a long drive, or a gig which comes up during the daytime, or a run of gigs (summer season for instance) then the agent will want to know that you don't have to ask for time off work etc.

Agents need reliability and someone who is always at the end of a phone at all times of the day (often people in a day job can't answer their phone whilst at work) as they may be sat with a client at the time of the call and need an answer ASAP.

I know of many magicians who do both, work and entertain, in the business they're called semi pros, agents and bookers will often bypass semi pros and book the full time pros first.

It's a kind of pecking order, those of you on here who are full time pros will understand this, often many magicians will ask how to move up the pecking order, the biggest jump will come when you let it be known that entertaining is your sole income.

All the above applies to working through agents and management companies, Joe Public hasn't a clue, if you tell Joe Public you're a pro and you're good at what you do then they have no doubt to not believe you.

To sum up, if you want to work for agents and earn a really good living while having a great lifestyle then you will only achieve this by becoming a full-time entertainer. If you don't intend to work through entertainment agencies then anything goes really as you're finding your own work so you can call yourself whatever you want, as long as you deliver the goods that is!!!

JMO

Gary Jones.

Magical Jon,
I do not understand why someone would come on to a magical forum and then say something along the lines of "no-one earns a fulltime living from magic". Don't you think that's a rather strange way to start a forum relationship, (unless of course your aim was to just p155 people off)?
There are plenty.
I guess it all depends on what your definition of an "average wage" is. Personally, I wouldn't get out of bed for the £23k you say is "secure"...
As Paul McKenna would say..."His rich thermometer is set a little low".
This is why the whole "working pro" IMHO is crazy - who cares?
So far as I am concerned, James is a magician, he's someone who knows his craft, as is e.g Gary Jones, (who I see has just posted in before me!!) or any other number of people I consider as friends who are pros. People with "fulltime" jobs often have second incomes - they are called "overtime", and "bonuses", it's just that they see everything as one revenue-stream.

I worked at the weekend, I was entertaining, was magical, and they paid me (very) well. Did they care whether I was "fulltime" or "not fulltime"? No. In fact it was a conversation we had when she booked me because the 2 x "pros" she'd spoken to already had annoyed her with their attitude. Unprofessional professionals.

"Entertainment" is, and always has been a business of high and low profile characters, and people who work second and third jobs. It's part of the mystique and culture of the entertainment business. Yes - Derren Brown earns a lot, (not surprising at the hourly rate he charges, and used to charge 7 years ago when I asked for a quote). Some magicians do nothing but magic, some do other things. Some do other things out of choice. It is completely possible to earn a living out of nothing but magic. Perhaps it's not that you don't think it's possible, just not possible for you? Cream will rise to the top, but if you think you are the milk, cossetted in the "security" illusion, you always will be milk.

I earn a lot more per hour from "magic" than I do from corporate learning and voiceovers, the other things I do, but I choose to flex the %'s of each that I do depending on economic conditions, and my own financial aspirations. Overall, magic 3rd in the overall revenue rankings, but it still pays for holidays. Do I care what I call myself, or what other people see me as - not really. I care that my customers pay me, and that they believe I have done an excellent job for them.

As for the "security" of your job - I strongly suggest you read, 2 or 3 times, a small, unassuming book called "Who Moved My Cheese". In the current economic climate it just might re-frame your perceptions and change your life, if you are brave enough to let it.
Sincerely.
Bruce

Hi Bruce
I am not sure what your post is for. You mock me and my income and the fact I like my job security and then say that you did a gig and went very well but you are not prepared to be full-time magician. That doesn't make any sense? If you are as you claim as good as a full-time pro why not heed your own advice? Or are you just trying to justify your own choices after Gary Jones just said that agents take a dim view of semi-pros like yourself.
I am an all or nothing guy. I don't do semi anything. I like to put my all into things. I can't think of any good semi pros in entertainment. eg. all the best magicians in the world Derren Brown, Penn and Teller, David Copperfield, Paul Daniels through to Lee Smith and Gary Jones. I can't see these guys being "semi pro".

Jon,
I was unaware that I was "mocking you" - I was merely mocking the perception of "security" (of any type) - in work, (especially at the moment), as it is largely an illusion.
I am not sure I said you do things "Semi" either; your job, and your salary is largely your choice. I am cool with that, no mocking, you brought up the numbers, so presumably you were OK with a comment on them?

I have taken my own advice, I work for myself, however, I am able to earn a lot more than magic would have provided me with - personally - from mixing and matching what I do to maximise my earnings.

I have absolutely no fear that I could earn substantial earnings "fulltime" from magic, but I do not trust my back to support me (excuse the pun...) due to a major spinal injury several years ago. As I can only stand comfortably for an hour or so, I will never be able to do long gigs, I can and will only work gigs where I can (to some extent) control the working environment. The idea of working trade shows for example, is completely out of the question.

Gary's comments about agents are completely correct, but have absolutely no relevance to me as I will never work through an agent in my current capacity, and I appreciate that completely. Frankly, I know other Equity members with agents that do less voiceover work than me who does not have one, and finds my own leads - so I am not convinced of their value anyway in many instances.

I would hazard at a guess that there are just as many semi-pros earning (pro-rata) the same as the pros, it's just that you do not hear about them so regularly, and they are not doing it day in, day out. Two great friends of mine fit that category for example - one of them in fact has an agent, and works via them regularly.

Anyway; back on point.
As I said already:

I do not understand why someone would come on to a magical forum and then say something along the lines of "no-one earns a fulltime living from magic".

- that's the reason I posted, the rest was just general forum "noise" I suppose, however, mockage was not an intention. Comparing personal aspiration, (though perhaps a little vulgar) is not the same as mockage. I do not care that much. Sorry.
Bruce

Hi,

Most semi pros I know are earning as much, if not more than most pros due to the fact that they have the security of a full time job. Saying that, most semi pros I know (I know quite a few) wished they had the nerve to go full-time, but due to their job 'security' (yes I know) they're quite scared to take the plunge. When you have a mortgage, family etc. giving up a 'day job' to go full-time is a huge step to take. Many of the full-time pros I know personally were either made redundant, or were already self-employed in other areas so the step to full-time wasn't such a big step to take!

I was actually talking about the agents I deal with, some are the biggest in the UK, but not all agents are the same. The main reason 'most' agents would rather book full-time pros is, as mentioned, they don't have to take time off work and they are 100% committed to their job, I'm not saying that semi pros don't give it 100%, it's just that they have other commitments to consider.

None of this of course is relevant of if you find your own gigs.

Bruce, it was great to catch up with you at the Bristol Day.

Regards,

Gary Jones.