talkmagic.co.uk

Is it just me or is there an obsession with magi wanting to sell every idea they think up?

I thought the point of what we do is largely to entertain and then, if there is enough interest off the back of the performances and/or the creator no longer requires the work for their own use, they consider making it available.

Although in principle I like the market competitiveness which keeps prices down, does this not also have the negative effect of, filling the market with c*** (not the best), making the basic principles (on which most effects are based) available for every YouTube kiddy with access to their parents credit card and possibly worst of all, undermining the works that have truly been worked on, researched and properly tested?

Perhaps it is just an internet thing though as I have never had a face to face conversation with a magician who did not frequent the net who was planning on selling the idea they thought up in their tea break.

I do not mean to grumble, it just seems a little... odd.

Well I can't really speak for the ones who do this, as the only good idea I've ever had I just asked someone to post here in the restricted section, specifically so that it wouldn't be available to "every YouTube kiddy with access to their parents credit card".

Double edged sword when you consider that if magic weren't so available, there probably wouldn't be so many members here... How would I myself have learned anything without the source material I have purchased?

I'm in magic for the craft of it, when I want to be in it for the money, I'll do it through performance. If I did invent something amazing, like REALLY amazing, I'd only sell it by teaching it in person. I'm a bit odd like that. However, this is because I have skills in other areas that currently constitute my career.

If I relied upon magic for my primary income, I would look at the world around me and realise that I could make, maybe, £200 a night as a strolling magician. If I were to put all of my routine, novel twists and all, into a book however, I could make £20 a copy. Perhaps not so cost effective, writing it could take weeks, and It would have to sell 10 copies as often as I could get a night's work.

If however I were to video my entire routine, separate out the effects, put method on each one and release them as DVDs for £20 each, that could easily be £100 worth of DVDs in my nightly repertoire. Filming it will take roughly three times as long as performing it (with method time) but importantly, I'd only have to do it once, then wait for the money. Meanwhile I can spend my time coming up with more ideas for DVDs. With on-demand internet video, I wouldn't even have to master a DVD.

Personally I think the public perception of magic has sort of flipped on its head, through magics greatest secrets revealed, through youtube exposure, and I hate to say it, through Penn & Tellers Fool Us, the public's ideas regarding magic have become more and more focused on method and less concerned with entertainment.

We may be heading towards a tipping point where there are more people willing to pay to learn magic than are willing to pay to see magic performed. This shift is fuelling the acceleration in the publishing of magic.

When we hit that point most non-magicians' views of magic will start to lean towards the point where magic is something they are harangued into watching by a friend or relative who is learning, rather than something they would ever seek out under their own volition.

I hope it never gets that bad. But it might.

As it currently stands I dislike how some people are selling absolute nothing effects. If I mentioned the specific DVD I'm thinking of here, it might be considered a little offensive to the author, so I won't. Needless to say I've seen two more DVDs since released by the same guy which use the same principle for a variant of the same effect (penetration, linking, unlinking via a clever fold).

When something akin to a 5 second gag effect is sold on (multiple) DVDs, it dilutes the respect. Feels like you've paid for the sort of trick your granddad used to teach you (assuming your granddad wasn't John Davenport or something). I sometimes think that kids exposing effects on youtube (if they're thinking at all) are thinking "This cost the same as that other rubbish so it's just as lame".

That's what kids say now, right? "Lame"

Anyway that's just what I think.

-Stacy

There's a recession on and magic is a massive international trade.

People sell second-rate tricks when they don't have the talent to make it as entertainers.

This comment does not apply to genuinely creative people who are coming up with original stuff. That is a different creative process.

TonyB wrote:People sell second-rate tricks when they don't have the talent to make it as entertainers.

This comment does not apply to genuinely creative people who are coming up with original stuff. That is a different creative process.

I really needed to echo Tony's observation here in that it is such a potent, simple, TRUTH.

When it comes to the economy -- HORSE PUCKY!

Hacks will hock stuff constantly no matter the economic atmosphere they just shovel out the barn more often when cash is flowing smoother. The two primary areas that benefit from a bad economy most sell the same thing -- HOPE! (I refer to Casinos & Churches) Or I Should Probably Say, any vehicle that promises a seemingly nominal up-front venture with a high pay-off. The religion & spiritual side gets its boon either after fools have finally lost everything and can't find a way out, or else it will be those individuals that have an innate doubt of succeeding in such endeavors so "god" is the only practical salvation; If I change my way of life and thinking, turning my will and life over to the care of the divine spaghetti monster, all will be well. . . at least, after I die all will prove for the better.

While I will generally be the first to defend any person's right of faith, I also know how dangerous this particular placebo can be; not due to the charlatan factor but rather the desperation and potential fanaticism of the patron, which can affect us all. . . just look at 9/11 or American Politics.

Every student of magic thinks they've farted out the Holy Grail at least 100 times a year during their first 5 years of study let alone that first year of actual WORK in the industry -- real working performers really haven't the time to poop out book after book or trick after trick, they are too busy. I remember Chuck Jones laughing as to how much had changed in magic and the new stuff he'd never seen because he worked so much over the previous 5 years or so. That's a reality! The other part of that reality is what was mentioned by ANT originally; the pros would usually wait until they were either changing things up in a show (typically after a decade of doing the same act if not a generation after starting) even though they MAY make contributions here and there to a book or magazine article. The act of "releasing" their material was typically part of their Lecture Tour, usually the first lecture the real working pros have ever done but at most, it is one of very few they do UNLESS one of their prime venues for money making is pandering to the clamoring a.k.a. magic enthusiast who simply want that next new card trick or whatever the case might be -- fools that want to throw money at the gurus. . . you might hate that imagery, but there's such a huge truth to it and one of the reasons so many of them laugh behind the scenes, at the Magic Cafe crowd -- victims of the biggest marketing scam in magic history and even when warned of such, they beg for more. The Cafe is not alone, being a clearing house for new gadgets has become the reason for forums to exist. Like club houses, most forums have their own "pro shop" clique that gains the strongest boons. . . just look around, you'll find it in most all forums.

This is however, the other reason for all the poop -- you have a market filled with hungry hippos that have nothing better to do than throw money at those who've reworded and barfed up the essence of what has already been known of and written on by others. In some instances this plagiarism is complete, dealing with material released in recent years; I can't tell you how many people have shared the same exact things penned by John Riggs, Jerome Finley and Patrick Redford in the past 5 years alone AFTER having read their material but without recalling where they got it from

Go back 30 years and you find the Magic Castle jest over Larry Jennings not being able to write any more books after Marlo's death. . . same sort of thing still happens now and was going on prior to such times. . . as I said, hacks are always about, it's just gotten worse in today's world because it's so easy to get away with, it just takes a Lulu account and a set of clef-notes

Can I just add as a caveat, I have been nothing but completely pleased, impressed and thought money well spent on the effects and routines I have bought from board members, it just seems that every second person has an "effect" they plan to release.

One of the main effects that started me thinking down this line was one I saw a few weeks ago which was based on Facebook but called Friendbook. About 10 seconds in to the performance I thought "Killer Elite Pro". I may well be wrong and those of you that know both effects may be able to correct me as I do not own the Friendbook effect, but I would be hugely surprised if they were not, at the core of it, one and the same. That of course as well as everyone and their cousin publishing a PDF of their "new" idea for 20p, which contains enough basics to seriously undermine the workings behind some truly great effects.

Tomo, I understand your point about international markets and if somebody is an established performer and they use their ideas to subsidise a decline in bookings because of the recession, that is something very different. To use Naked Mentalism as a positive example, the idea of psychological priming is not new however the level of information, knowledge and suggestions in the book makes it a comprehensive read full of plenty of subtle nuances to add to routines and effects. What I am referring to is something along the lines of the routine I explained to you utilising the NBT with a different book test. If I sold the workings of the two separate book tests I use within a PDF in order for someone to effectively utilise the routine, and worse, sold it for £5, that severely undermines the work you have put in as well as the other book test I use.

To my mind there is a difference between price and value and although a routine may lack value for the price if you already know the principles, the unoriginal principles it contains, undermines the craft in a potentially serious way.

Or maybe I am just getting grumpy in my old age!

I'll talk about the bright side of selling stuff:

To be honest, it depends on why you are selling it. If I sell something someday, it will be for people to really use and get some insight into my thinking, and maybe build up on it. For example, thanks to bright names like Marc Paul, Bruce, and Colin Mcleod, I've been building up some DR stuff and its been great. Although the principle has been there, some people's thinking make your head spin and create.

The theory behind teaching stuff would be, that you would never jump up to nano technology straight ahead from those large computers long time ago. Thinking and developing happens by stages. ( And you sold that because you thought you would teach a couple of serious learners ).

That's why once in a while, someone comes up with something already there, but you just never saw how combining those stuff can play well.

Of course, it comes down to "why is he selling this"... believe it or not, there are some good people out there who want to see mentalism develop, and not just sell stuff. And you can see that by the material and honest thinking and deep thinking they put out. Bob Cassidy, Richard Osterlind. You can't call them business men. Well, they might want to gain some money, but it was not "selling for the heck of making cash", but maybe something like "I'll TEACH them, and I'll get paid", just like any other genuine book you bought at the university.

.... I guess it comes down to the credibility of the person selling you, his history of stuff sold and etc...

Keep your eyes open for my release coming later in the year

...shortly after my camera man gets his camera fixed

I may not have made my original point clear enough.

It is not the incremental progression I have a problem with, on the contrary I embrace it. Colin McLeod in particular I believe to be an excellent thinker and thoroughly enjoyed his lecture at Tab Mentis.

I am talking about when someone takes something established, puts a different name on it and resells it for virtually nothing. I am referring to works that undermine rather than add to the effects it uses, a case of the the sum of the parts being less rather than, greater than, the whole.

This I think causes advancement and progress to be slowed as the people who truly release innovative works, or advancements, are less inclined to do so as their work is ripped off and repackaged as something new, when really it's not.

To give an example, I use Colin McLeod's "Make ESP Cards Match". The method, in itself, is nothing new, Colin's combination of ideas is something new (sum of the parts greater than the whole). I use a very different presentation, if you know the effect you would probably still identify it as I also use ESP cards, however the presentation is certainly different.

If I whacked it in to a PDF and sold it for £2 it would undermine all the work Colin McLeod had put in to combining various ideas and subtleties not to mention giving away the core effects for much less than they are worth. This would not be an advancement of mentalism, it would be me trying to cash in and make a name for myself off the back of someone elses work.

A_n_t wrote:Tomo, I understand your point about international markets and if somebody is an established performer and they use their ideas to subsidise a decline in bookings because of the recession, that is something very different. To use Naked Mentalism as a positive example, the idea of psychological priming is not new however the level of information, knowledge and suggestions in the book makes it a comprehensive read full of plenty of subtle nuances to add to routines and effects. What I am referring to is something along the lines of the routine I explained to you utilising the NBT with a different book test. If I sold the workings of the two separate book tests I use within a PDF in order for someone to effectively utilise the routine, and worse, sold it for £5, that severely undermines the work you have put in as well as the other book test I use.

To my mind there is a difference between price and value and although a routine may lack value for the price if you already know the principles, the unoriginal principles it contains, undermines the craft in a potentially serious way.

Or maybe I am just getting grumpy in my old age!

I see what you mean, Ant. To sell a lot of a product you need either to be very lucky and do a heck of a lot of networking (if you're going it alone) or to get the main dealers onboard to take your work. That's a lot of work in itself, and in turn, they have to make a judgement as to whether they can sell what you produce. They're not charities. If they can't see a market for your work, they'll keep it from the market by ignoring you. A lot of very poor magic falls by the wayside like that.

As I said earlier, more working magicians are selling their material today simply because they're not getting the bookings. There is a long and deep recession to outrun here. I've talked to a lot of people doing just that over the past six months. They may feel that they're selling the family silver by publishing their material, but it makes perfect economic sense. If you have the talent to create original material that others can use to dazzle, then you'd be a fool not to do everything you can to push yourself forwards and outrun the most difficult times in living memory. Most people have enough pride to refuse to slum it on welfare handouts when they have the wit and intelligence to survive the recession. Besides, our art is an evolving one, and ideas are the mechanism behind that evolution. Why would anyone want to actively suppress new ideas?

I am not going for that kind of stuff, paying stacks of cash for other peoples work. I, in total in the 3 months I have been doing magic have paid about £30 for decks of cards and a copy of RRTCM (I borrowed expert card technique). I love inventing my own stuff and I love all of the sleights that can be performed just with a deck of cards. I am also trying to work out how to do a lot of things myself, that way I am purely self taught and can mould everything to suit me. At them moment I am working on an on the table routine and some shuffle tracking, and have very limited material to allow me to do so.

Some might say that I would start doing everything the wrong way, but I want to develop my own style of magic, and I know the basics, why can't everything else I learn be my own.

Another benefit is that you get to grips with the moves inside out, and every possible movement is examined, so a new, perfect technique can be formed. As with Stacy, I would only sell my magic on a one to one basis, but I am not at the level yet at which I can be teaching people.

This is just my opinion on things, sorry if I went a tad of topic. (I might add more to this when I come to think of it)

Tjex

I think there are a couple of different things going on.

First, there are the half-ideas that anyone who can produce a .pdf could flog. Possibly unworkable and often untested, these things might well be duplicates of pre-existing tricks. This might be deliberate copying or "enhanced" versions (sometimes quite the opposite, in fact) or it might be due to a lack of research.

These things are around for a number or reasons. As Tomo said some time ago, nowadays it is easy for people to produce, publish and sell their ideas without having to rely on anyone else (he described this as analogous to the punk record industry). Another reason for this is a lack of information. There's so much "chaff" flying around, it's easy for someone to get away with knocking-off another effect, or producing a piece of rubbish, and still make some cash. Another reason is that there is a current boom in magic culture, partly fueled by the ease with which one can buy magic now (and if other people market dross, why shouldn't I?). The final thing that I can think of right now is that magicians are pack rats and are easily hooked into buying new tricks and alternative methods for old tricks, irrespective of whether they are actually any good.

Most of these things cannot be changed. The only thing we can do is increase awareness of the knock-offs and trash and hope people find our comments before they buy.

Then we have the other side of the coin. A lot of material is published that is good and original. Magicians might do this because they no longer use the tricks (or methods for the tricks), because they wish to share, or simply to get in some cash. Many of the points I made above apply equally here: it is now easy to self-publish, magic is a boom industry thanks to the increased ease of communication and has always had a strong element of magicians wanting to learn new tricks and looking for "Holy Grail" methods.

Yes, that's another problem Part TImer.

There's a guy currently knocking off anything he can get his dirty little mits on and threatening to sue anyone who gets in his way (*cough* Sharpie Bender *cough*). There was a giant row on the Magic Cafe (and elsewhere, where people can swear and say what they actually think) about it a few months ago, and unfortunately, it seems to have encouraged at least one other person to follow his horrible example. The attitude seems to be "What the hell are you going to do about it, punk?". Well, the best thing to do is to publicise such rip offs.

Tomo wrote:Yes, that's another problem Part TImer.

There's a guy currently knocking off anything he can get his dirty little mits on and threatening to sue anyone who gets in his way (*cough* Sharpie Bender *cough*). There was a giant row on the Magic Cafe (and elsewhere, where people can swear and say what they actually think) about it a few months ago, and unfortunately, it seems to have encouraged at least one other person to follow his horrible example. The attitude seems to be "What the hell are you going to do about it, punk?". Well, the best thing to do is to publicise such rip offs.

If you're on about who I think you are, then I'm fairly sure he's pal-ly with most people he's ripped off, which makes it all the worse. I'm not sure they know it's happened to them, which is why it continues.
I don't see the need to sell anything to be perfectly honest. They say 90% of everything is c*** (not the best)...in Magic, I fear this number is considerably higher. What's worse is that most people who go on about not doing it, are ones that seem to think it's ok, if it's just them. (Not singling anyone out here, just making an observation)

and to go with Tomo's idea of publicising rip-offs, the guys name is James Clark.

Of course, another thing we can do is publicise the good stuff. That way the money is more likely to make its way to the originators of quality material.