talkmagic.co.uk

BigShot wrote:Thanks Jon.

I'm no fan of his style, but I'll watch those episodes just so I've seen (what I assume to be) him at his best.

Post on here when you watch them mate

I'm never going to get that hour back but I will check out the two episodes mentioned by Jon tonight.

I still think he should give that car back though!

JammyT wrote:Makes a bet with this car lot owner that he can find a set of keys (for a $100k Dodge Viper hidden by owner in a random car of approx 100). I think he had 30 mins, If he finds them he keeps the car, If he doesn't he has to pay $100k.

The downside to the bet is too big to be credible. Just reading this immediately raises my suspicions, but I suspect that the target audience lapped it up.

Tomo wrote:

JammyT wrote:Makes a bet with this car lot owner that he can find a set of keys (for a $100k Dodge Viper hidden by owner in a random car of approx 100). I think he had 30 mins, If he finds them he keeps the car, If he doesn't he has to pay $100k.

The downside to the bet is too big to be credible. Just reading this immediately raises my suspicions, but I suspect that the target audience lapped it up.

As I was watching I was just saying to myself, 'Bull sh*t'

As soon as I heard him say 'Hellsromism' I thought 'Bull sh*t'

Then when he said, 'I've been mastering the art of muscle reading for about 8 years' I thought 'Bull sh*t'

Now when he says anything at all, even 'the Sky is blue' I think 'Bull sh*t'

Tomo - that is was what I was thinking.

I can't make my mind up about it though. There's 2 sides.
On one, Angel stood to lose $100k in real money whereas the dealer would only lose the cost price of the car. He wouldn't get his profit, but I wouldn't count that as a loss per se. So in cash terms, Angel bet $100k against (out of thin air) $70k. Vegas being a gambling town I imagine there could be someone daft enough to take that bet.

On the other hand it seems insane to me that any businessman would take a super expensive version of the kind of "what would you bet me that I can..." bet you'd see in a bar. In a town like Vegas I have a hard time seeing a Vegas native being dumb enough to fall for such a hustle when sober.

The more I think about it though, the more I disbelieve... and the reason has nothing to do with the implausibility of the bet or to do with Angel himself.

It's the bit with the girls sat around the table.
First, what was a group of girls doing sitting around a table in a car dealership? Second, what did it have to do with the piece? Third, unless there was a cut I missed, does it not seem a bit odd (or scripted) that right after failing that trick it was time to meet the dealer?
I can't help thinking the table scene was a sales pitch for the main event. Something to make it seem like there was a risk of failure.



As a side point: Did anyone else notice that he said this was the first time he'd used his skills for personal gain? All this time we thought he was making money hand over fist and really he was doing it all for free! Amazing.

I can't see that Criss Angel would really study psychophysiological thought reading, but I can tell you it 100% does work. Try it with your friends, or even a stranger. You'll be surprised how strong sometimes it feels they are moving towards a certain way, you will even think they are messing about but in their mind they really aren't trying to give anything away or move.

BigShot wrote:Tomo - that is was what I was thinking.

I can't make my mind up about it though. There's 2 sides.
On one, Angel stood to lose $100k in real money whereas the dealer would only lose the cost price of the car. He wouldn't get his profit, but I wouldn't count that as a loss per se. So in cash terms, Angel bet $100k against (out of thin air) $70k. Vegas being a gambling town I imagine there could be someone daft enough to take that bet.

On the other hand it seems insane to me that any businessman would take a super expensive version of the kind of "what would you bet me that I can..." bet you'd see in a bar. In a town like Vegas I have a hard time seeing a Vegas native being dumb enough to fall for such a hustle when sober.

The more I think about it though, the more I disbelieve... and the reason has nothing to do with the implausibility of the bet or to do with Angel himself.

It's the bit with the girls sat around the table.
First, what was a group of girls doing sitting around a table in a car dealership? Second, what did it have to do with the piece? Third, unless there was a cut I missed, does it not seem a bit odd (or scripted) that right after failing that trick it was time to meet the dealer?
I can't help thinking the table scene was a sales pitch for the main event. Something to make it seem like there was a risk of failure.



As a side point: Did anyone else notice that he said this was the first time he'd used his skills for personal gain? All this time we thought he was making money hand over fist and really he was doing it all for free! Amazing.

While the actual use of Muscle Reading does work and I know that Banechek does it in his shows and so does the Kreskin (sometimes for his paycheck at the end.). The reality of the situation is this, it was 100% set up. Even if the Dealer ship was getting "Free advertisement" by being on the show. The point is that no car dealer would agree to such a thing because they would lose a lot of money by taking that bet and in pretty much most car dealers take a cut from the sales of cars that they sell.

I am going to say this, I think the car was rented by the studio or Criss Angel. He makes more then enough money to afford it and most likely just rented it and then hired the dealer to "lead" him to the keys to that specific car. This way nobody really loses and to the audience it "looks" like he did something amazing.

It's almost as if this whole thing was part of a tv programme about a magician trying to find impressive stunts to perform to delight his audience rather than a factual documentary about a normal guy with super human powers who just happened to be being followed by a film crew and on his days off from working in his heavy metal band likes to spend his time demonstrating his abilities at car dealerships.

Next thing you'll be telling me that he can't actually walk on water and that footage was achieved by some sort of trickery or conjuring.

Or that magicians sometimes lie about stuff to make what they're doing more entertaining or dramatic.

A J Irving wrote:It's almost as if this whole thing was part of a tv programme about a magician trying to find impressive stunts to perform to delight his audience rather than a factual documentary about a normal guy with super human powers who just happened to be being followed by a film crew and on his days off from working in his heavy metal band likes to spend his time demonstrating his abilities at car dealerships.

Next thing you'll be telling me that he can't actually walk on water and that footage was achieved by some sort of trickery or conjuring.

Or that magicians sometimes lie about stuff to make what they're doing more entertaining or dramatic.

You are kinda missing the point.

Yeah we all (as magicians / mentalists / performers) bull sh*t our audience to an extent, but not many of us use our knowledge / skills to effectively steal a $100k car.

I was initially expressing my cynicism with regards to muscle reading in general and whether it actually works to which I have received some interesting responses.

Also another debatable point is that if muscle reading does actually work, is that what Criss was doing?

He's a magician so he's going to lie about what he's actually doing. It's for a tv show so he's going to lie twice about what he's doing. The important thing about that bit is that to the casual viewer it appears that he goes into the dealership, does something magical and then walks out with an expensive car. How he achieves that, whether or not it actuals happens, if he actually ends up with the car in real life- all these things are irrelevant from the perspective of Criss and the programme makers.

The only thing that matters is the final edit and whether or not it entertains his target audience.

The same thing also applies to ANY performance of magic.

On stage, in front of the camera, with your friends and family; when you perform magic everything is permitted providing you fulfil your goal- entertaining your audience and injecting some magic into their day.

Agreed. It's television, so the effect isn't just on those he performs to in person, but for the viewers at home.

Remember when Derren "managed" to get the losing ticket to win at a dog racing track? It certainly appeared so. But we all know that Derren didn't really steal however much he claimed to have falsely won. It was an illusion on both people present at the event and us at home.

Had an interesting chat about when Derren did the flipping the 10p until he got a row of 10 heads the other day...of course it's possible. But why would he do it? It's for TV so he may as well just use a special coin and then throw in a few outtakes. It doesn't detract from anything, it just saves a whole lot of footage.

Yep, I know if I was doing a television show and I had an effect that I wanted to achieve, no matter how skilled I was, I'd go for the quickest, easiest route to achieve the same outcome.

Lenoir wrote:Had an interesting chat about when Derren did the flipping the 10p until he got a row of 10 heads the other day...of course it's possible. But why would he do it? It's for TV so he may as well just use a special coin and then throw in a few outtakes. It doesn't detract from anything, it just saves a whole lot of footage.

Yes, and studio time costs $$$ so just go for the easiest option and then say you did it another way.

Just in glancing over the first page of posts I saw a long list of views that made me want to both, laugh and cry.

Stating with Angel's "Hellstromism" I've seen him make this claim at least 3 different times on Tv and in every instance he used trickery not true Muscle Reading, probably because he's too focused on his ego to pay attention to subtle cues. Regardless, Angels has horrid practice habits and a monster arrogance that gets in his way frequently.

Secondly, if you research 19th and early 20th century "Mentalism" (before it was really known as that "officially") you will find that most of what the performer did in such programs was just that, Muscle Reading. You can readily do a full evening or afternoon demonstration of it though I doubt you could push it more than a hour in today's era and would have to toss in a great bit of variety. The combination of MR with a primitive form of Ericksonian domination and heightened memory (coupled with really big brass balls) is what the majority of early day Mentalists executed, especially those akin to jan Hanussen and his European contemporaries.

I do know that John Riggs has a new program and is largely composed of MR now days and at least two others of note are doing the same. Jan Bardi of Belgium has done such an act for decades.

A J Irving wrote:The only thing that matters is the final edit and whether or not it entertains his target audience.

The same thing also applies to ANY performance of magic.

On stage, in front of the camera, with your friends and family; when you perform magic everything is permitted providing you fulfil your goal- entertaining your audience and injecting some magic into their day.

I completely disagree with the 'everything is permitted bit'

And they obviously haven't fulfilled their goal because pretty much everyone knows there was something was fishy about it.

There will be people that think the short route is okay to take as long as the end effect is the same, that's fine but it's not how I do things.

In a card trick I can understand how people would rather use a gimmick than learn a sleight but still, I would rather learn the sleight.

That is besides the point, the point is, as I have said earlier whatever 'route' you take is it okay for you to use your skill / knowledge for personal gain in that manner.

Some of you believe that the whole thing was a set up (the owner was in on it) so in that case I guess he was performing for the TV audience only, now I am not a mentalist and admit I don't know a lot about it (it's just not my thing) but even I could see that Criss was full of c*** (not the best) and that even if the car lot owner wasn't 'in on it', it was still set up somehow in order for Criss to find the key easily.

I personally think if you say you are going to use the art of muscle reading to perform a magical feat, you should do exactly that.

If you have the skill use it, if you don't learn it.