talkmagic.co.uk

Lord Freddie wrote:Mark, you're wasting your time with him. These posts are wasted. He won't ever get it.
Check his post history and you'll see 80% of his posts are gushing praise for Derren Brown and Derren is anti-psychic. So
Mr Rawlings is anti-psychic. He's read Derren's books so he's obviously an expert.

No I've always been a sceptic. I've always been the kind of person that likes to see scientific evidence of things. It just so happens that a lot of magicians are also sceptics and one of which I am a fan of has spoken on the subject before, but only about things I already believed myself, i.e. there's no such things as ghosts, people can't read minds etc.

I haven't gushed praise, at all, I've even agreed with you when shows of his have been boring etc. Perhaps a lot of my posts have been on Derren Brown threads, yes, but that's because he's the only magician I've seen recently on TV sparking up conversations. I do still read a lot of threads, but I just don't post in them much as usually the answers have been given instantly by most likely professional magicians.

I'm trying to say there's more to tarot than there seems. Anyone who has done numerous readings can attest you aquire a knack for hitting on things with incredible accuracy and it seems to be a skill that is gained by experience.

A sceptic will call it intuition, a believer will call it psychic powers but it does happen. When people confuse readers with those who claim to channel dead relatives that's where problems start. People leave a good tarot reading feeling uplifted and that their problems aren't as bad as they seemed. It's reassuring.

Plus good readers don't tell people any old rubbish. No medical advice or firm decisions are dispensed. The sitter leaves feeling they are in control. Tarot cards do work and as Mark said, they are interpreted to fit the individual in the same way that the lyrics to a song will have different meanings to people. Tarot readers aren't evil villians rubbing their hands with glee when someone pays them. You need to have a trustworthy demeanor and empathy for people you have just met to be a good reader.

I apologise if it came across that I was saying all 'psychics' are evil charlatans. No I don't believe that. I believe some genuinely think they have a supernatural gift, I believe some are just using good 'reading' skills to give advice. I don't see any harm in the fortune tellers with a crystal ball you see at the circus etc, since the people going know it's a bit of fun. But I do think there are people out there making a lot of money from being massive liars and if it's more than 'entertainment' and potentially damaging life changing advice being given then I think that's bad. I think the likes of Sally Morgan saying she can talk to ghosts is also bad. I don't know how I'd feel about her if she did it for free and everyone went away happy because they think their loved one is at peace, I really don't know..

Anyway regardless of what you might think I don't actually like arguing, especially online, it just seems very tedious.

You must understand that as soon as someone who is a paranormal / occult entertainer discusses their craft on magic forums we tend to get people chipping in and insulting us which is why we have secret areas, so we can be in peace.

What Sally Morgan does is radically different to what people like myself do. I want to give people a good night not deal with tearful and emotional people who think I can talk to their dead loved ones.
I don't know enough about Sally herself, but many mediums (and I have been involved in this world) truly believe they have a gift and aren't deliberately out to deceive people. They often 'perform' in breezy portacabins that function as a spiritualist church for, at the most, travel expenses.

Two exellent posts there Freddie

Derren Brown is actually famous in the first place because of ME! I mentioned to his television producer and now personal manager once that I thought it would be a very good idea to put on television a mentalist. He looked up at the sky and said thoughtfully, "I wouldn't mind finding a young mentalist and making him into a star". And he did. But it was my brilliant idea in the first place. The ironic thing is that this same chap used to manage psychic medium James Byrne. And now he manages a psychic debunker whom a psychic (me!) indirectly made famous in the first place.

As for "fortune tellers with the crystal ball" they are often the most unethical of the lot. Young Mr Rawlings has a lot to learn.

Thank JIm.

Although this is not aimed at Mr Rawlings or anyone in particular, the worst bane of those that work within this field are those that don't perform in any kind of professional (as in getting hired specifically) way and are of the 'bedroom speculator', 'need a new trick every day for my friends' or 'my mum and the cat loved it!' type and seem to voice strong opinions on something they know little about. The reason why I made the Doctor analogy is because the Doctor is highly trained and has lots of experience and that is respected whereas the opinions of people that have been working in the, for want of a better phrase, 'psychic entertainer' field are dismissed by people who have just bought 13 Steps and haven't got to the chapter on readings yet.

A GOOD tarot reading can be of much more use than a card trick (which is a trivial diversion for a few minutes when you think about it). For example, if someone truly believes in the tarot cards and has been worrying about their health but hasn't the courage to visit the doctor, if you tell them that the cards are saying they should visit the doctor to put their mind at rest, they may well possibly act upon this. What are the positive outcomes? If there is nothing wrong with them, their worries are put to rest. If they have a health issue, then they will receive treatment rather than it progressing. A simple card with pictures on, could save someone's life! It take a lot of responsibility and care for people to be able to read tarot well and people need to be treated as human beings, not another prop to make you feel good and get a 'reaction'.

In a way, it is 'cosmic counselling' and if you are dispensing good advice and reassurance to someone that needs it, how can that be a bad thing? It's certainly more useful than some godawful routine with seven envelopes and a billet switch. People that have been giving readings for a long time often have the same people come back to them which is a sign that what you are doing is to a satisfactory standard. Although tarot readings are not technically 'magic', it certainly is a related art. Sadly, the voice of inexperience seems to be the loudest and most critical on magic forums.

mark lewis wrote:
As for "fortune tellers with the crystal ball" they are often the most unethical of the lot. Young Mr Rawlings has a lot to learn.

I completely disagree. No one takes the gypsy lady at the funfair etc seriously, they do it for a bit of fun. They take it about as seriously as the average person does their horoscope. I don't mean ones that do readings from their home or whatever, I mean the entertainment kind. Yes a long time ago those types at a circus were charlatans, but nowadays people have more sense, so the only way they could survive was to put on a mystic character and entertain. If they all still believe they are for real, or if they are doing it to try and swindle money, then great for them, but they aren't really fooling anyone, it's just fun, it's still a circus act, and taken as such nowadays.

Lord Freddie wrote:Thank JIm.

Although this is not aimed at Mr Rawlings or anyone in particular, the worst bane of those that work within this field are those that don't perform in any kind of professional (as in getting hired specifically) way and are of the 'bedroom speculator', 'need a new trick every day for my friends' or 'my mum and the cat loved it!' type and seem to voice strong opinions on something they know little about. The reason why I made the Doctor analogy is because the Doctor is highly trained and has lots of experience and that is respected whereas the opinions of people that have been working in the, for want of a better phrase, 'psychic entertainer' field are dismissed by people who have just bought 13 Steps and haven't got to the chapter on readings yet.

But you did aim everything at me personally earlier, which I really didn't find fair. I don't have to have a new trick every day, and I very rarely even perform tricks for people. I know it might be hard to believe, but I don't feel the need to show off my skills every 5 seconds. 90% of my proper friends have no idea how good I am on the piano for example (I'm nothing special don't get me wrong, but I'd impress people who didn't know I played for sure). My parents have never heard me play, I've never even mentioned to them I do. I do these things for myself. I read a lot of stuff about magic tricks and practice things with a deck of cards to pass the time. I might show a trick now and then to friends, I might do something to strangers whilst out on the town, but that's about it and that's what I'm happy with. I'm also happy in the knowledge that if someone wanted to see something I could probably impress them, but I wouldn't run around like a 8 year old kid saying "look what I can do!, look what I can do!" to everyone I met, as nor would professional magicians etc. I simply like to have a good understanding of things I find interesting. I have tricks and knowledge which I've never shared at all, not even through lack of experience or nerves, just because I don't have the need to share everything I do and get praise. That's just me, I really don't think it's a bad thing.

The views I gave, which I did clearly say were just my opinion for the record, have not been directly influenced by anyone, as much as any belief can be formed naturally. I have parents who believe in ghosts, I have a brother who thinks God might exist but doesn't believe in ghosts and then there's me that doesn't really believe in anything. When I was a child I used to think ghosts might be real, but as I got older and my mind became more interested in scientific detail my beliefs changed and I naturally became a sceptic about most things, perhaps sadly, perhaps not. As I said earlier, I genuinely didn't mean to cause offense. I also completely understand where you're coming from in regards to what you do and I see no harm in it at all, some of it sounds quite interesting and fun, I find occult magic etc great because I like spooky things. The things I was disagreeing with were how objects can predict the future, but I meant in a supernatural way, not like them being tools or even 'props' to use for a reading which isn't anything supernatural, but I mean I would never agree with someone that would say a certain object can predict future events in a mystical way, things that are unknowable, it can predict the lottery and just plain daft stuff. But that's still just my opinion and the other person is entitled to theirs and their beliefs. When I was talking about psychics being wrong to take money, I should have also been more specific, because I meant the ones who make a very nice sum from knowingly misleading people in potentially damaging ways. If they do it for free or just a modest sum, if the reader leaves the customer feeling genuinely happy and they have had an enjoyable time, then fine I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but it's definitely not fine if the reader told the person they should make some kind of decision of any kind of importance, if they told them their partner is being unfaithful when they aren't, if they said the lump they've found was nothing and would go away in 4 weeks, anything quite important like that. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself very well there, but I do see your point and understand where you're coming from in all this, but please don't just make loads of assumptions about me. I'm really not trying to pretend I know everything, but I think you'd also be surprised at just what I do know (magic or otherwise). Thanks.

And so from you vast experience of meeting a huge range of people that would go from such a person, this is you conclusion?
Another sweeping, ill-informed, generalisation about a subject you know absolutlely nothing about.

Yes, some people would take it as a bit of fun and be dismissive but then there are people that would take such a thing incredibly seriously indeed, even if you were wearing a bejewelled turban. I have been hired to do the 'entertainment kind' at parties and events where you provide people with a small, fun reading and there have also been the 'gypsy lady' types there too. Some people do see it as a bit of fun, but there are those that take it VERY seriously, so to say "NO ONE" takes the gypsy lady seriously you are quite obviously showing your lack of experience. Some cultures, such as in Eastern Europe, are very superstitious when it comes to gypsies and fortune tellers and do believe they can put a curse on you, etc. I have met and talked to numerous people when giving readings and people are not so clear cut and easily put into a box as you seem to think. For instance, I have had muslim clients who are very nervous when having a reading as apparently their culture tells them that black magic, fortune telling etc DOES exist but they are not allowed to practice it. I have had a Catholic come to one of my seances and she told me that they are told in their religon that is is possible to contact spirits but they are not permitted to do it themselves.

I think you need to get out a bit more and meet a wider range of people before you start generalising and tarnising everyone with a generic brush.

MisterRawlings wrote:

Lord Freddie wrote:Thank JIm.

Although this is not aimed at Mr Rawlings or anyone in particular, the worst bane of those that work within this field are those that don't perform in any kind of professional (as in getting hired specifically) way and are of the 'bedroom speculator', 'need a new trick every day for my friends' or 'my mum and the cat loved it!' type and seem to voice strong opinions on something they know little about. The reason why I made the Doctor analogy is because the Doctor is highly trained and has lots of experience and that is respected whereas the opinions of people that have been working in the, for want of a better phrase, 'psychic entertainer' field are dismissed by people who have just bought 13 Steps and haven't got to the chapter on readings yet.

But you did aim everything at me personally earlier, which I really didn't find fair. I don't have to have a new trick every day, and I very rarely even perform tricks for people. I know it might be hard to believe, but I don't feel the need to show off my skills every 5 seconds. 90% of my proper friends have no idea how good I am on the piano for example (I'm nothing special don't get me wrong, but I'd impress people who didn't know I played for sure). My parents have never heard me play, I've never even mentioned to them I do. I do these things for myself. I read a lot of stuff about magic tricks and practice things with a deck of cards to pass the time. I might show a trick now and then to friends, I might do something to strangers whilst out on the town, but that's about it and that's what I'm happy with. I'm also happy in the knowledge that if someone wanted to see something I could probably impress them, but I wouldn't run around like a 8 year old kid saying "look what I can do!, look what I can do!" to everyone I met, as nor would professional magicians etc. I simply like to have a good understanding of things I find interesting. I have tricks and knowledge which I've never shared at all, not even through lack of experience or nerves, just because I don't have the need to share everything I do and get praise. That's just me, I really don't think it's a bad thing.

The views I gave, which I did clearly say were just my opinion for the record, have not been directly influenced by anyone, as much as any belief can be formed naturally. I have parents who believe in ghosts, I have a brother who thinks God might exist but doesn't believe in ghosts and then there's me that doesn't really believe in anything. When I was a child I used to think ghosts might be real, but as I got older and my mind became more interested in scientific detail my beliefs changed and I naturally became a sceptic about most things, perhaps sadly, perhaps not. As I said earlier, I genuinely didn't mean to cause offense. I also completely understand where you're coming from in regards to what you do and I see no harm in it at all, some of it sounds quite interesting and fun, I find occult magic etc great because I like spooky things. The things I was disagreeing with were how objects can predict the future, but I meant in a supernatural way, not like them being tools or even 'props' to use for a reading which isn't anything supernatural, but I mean I would never agree with someone that would say a certain object can predict future events in a mystical way, things that are unknowable, it can predict the lottery and just plain daft stuff. But that's still just my opinion and the other person is entitled to theirs and their beliefs. When I was talking about psychics being wrong to take money, I should have also been more specific, because I meant the ones who make a very nice sum from knowingly misleading people in potentially damaging ways. If they do it for free or just a modest sum, if the reader leaves the customer feeling genuinely happy and they have had an enjoyable time, then fine I guess there's nothing wrong with that, but it's definitely not fine if the reader told the person they should make some kind of decision of any kind of importance, if they told them their partner is being unfaithful when they aren't, if they said the lump they've found was nothing and would go away in 4 weeks, anything quite important like that. I'm not sure if I'm explaining myself very well there, but I do see your point and understand where you're coming from in all this, but please don't just make loads of assumptions about me. I'm really not trying to pretend I know everything, but I think you'd also be surprised at just what I do know (magic or otherwise). Thanks.

So from this post, it seems that although you are cocksure on forums and quite free to express ill-informed views (getting the hump if people don't agree with you) that you are quite insecure in real-life and lack confidence? Maybe you need a tarot reading?
You do come across badly on forums, dismissive of everyone who doesn't agree with you (yes, I saw you ranting about this thread on Twitter amid all the tweets about the X-Factor and The Only Way Is Essex). I don't understand why you are learning magic/mentalism if you don't intend to perform. Is it to make you feel superior?

The thing is, if you want to learn anything in this field, the advice of those that have been out there doing it has more worth than anything on the latest DVD. You make general assumptions, dismissive statements, and when people try to explain their stance you just continue to argue with them and either disregard or misunderstand what they have spent time explaining to you. Look up the Monty Python 'Argument' sketch as you remind of this character....

Just accept that some people in life won't hold the same opinions as you, some people have more experience in knowledge in areas than you, some people have different beliefs to you which doesn't mean they are all wrong and you are right and somtimes you are wrong.

I know they don't have the same opinions as me, hence why I keep saying 'in my opinion'. I'd disagree that lots of people take the gypsy lady type very seriously. Completely disagree. 100%.

I didn't rant, I said I was surprised I was getting attacked for being a sceptic on magic forums, because that's quite ironic.

No I don't practice it to make me feel superior, you're the one that does it to feel superior, to make up for your shortcomings I guess.

Why are you now stalking me on the internet? That's pathetic. If you don't like someone why would you then visit their websites? It's like how you hate Derren Brown now but kept watching every episode. Why? If you don't like it, don't watch. If you don't like me, don't stalk me like some creep.

Never said I hated Derren Brown, said I didn't like his recent shows so don't put thoughts or opinions into my mouth please. It just goes to show how little you read and take in of the posts on here unless they agree with you. If you want to get into a debate, at least have the decency to listen to the responses for christ sake. You really just want to argue for the sake of it. There is some great information on this thread which you may come back to in a few years time when you have matured a tad and find to be very useful. I wouldn't consider you to be a 'sceptic', I would consider you, from the way you post here, to be someone with a very closed and narrow mind and want to end this dialogue here. Though my psychic powers tell me you're going to have to boost your flagging self-esteem by having the last word...

Id like to mention the Gypsy Tarot readers ( not Gypsy Tarot cards but Romany Gypsy readers). Its been mentioned in this thread that these types are both all scam artists and not taken seriously by the general public. Both these statements are utter nonsense. The Gypsy community has its fair share of charlatans thats true, but they're not ALL like that at all, there are many honest types aswell - lets not tar everyone with the same brush.
As for these types not being taken seriously, id be intrested to hear how this conclusion came about. I am part Romany Gypsy - my grans mother was a full Romany Gypsy. I did Tarot readings years ago and can say with certainty that when folk new i was part Gypsy it actually gave me more credability in their eyes. The Gypsies are seen as a very mysterious people (they generally are), and have been long associated with fortune telling and the Tarot. To say that people dont buy into all this mystery is nonsense. As Freddie pointed out there are many, even nowadays, who believe the Gypsy community can cast spells for good or evil, and they still retain a certain element of mystery to most.



jim

Great post Jim and the exact type of real world experience that I mentioned of which Mr Rawlings has none.
In fact, Romany readers are often more 'real' to people as it's assumed that their skills come from an age old tradition which has been passed down through generations (and probably has),

I have friends from Lithuania and Romania who talk of gypsies with fear and relate (possibly urban myth) stories about a friend of a friend having a curse put on them and such and such happened or a reading someone had that came true.