talkmagic.co.uk

For those out there that consider yourselves professional in our art, how long did it take you from beginning magic learning studying performing to actually saying do ya know what I'm good enough now to do this full time/part time. Do you feel that you have to have reached a certain amount of experience and years performing magic before making a living off it?

Just curious

I'm going to give you my honest opinion here, if folks don't like it, tough, I don't care.

Now before I do I should point out that I am not a "pro" in the accepted sense. I do not do paid gigs nor make my living from performing. HOWEVER, and this is in my opinion the important point - I have a "professional" attitude towards performing magic. Just because I'm not a paid, hired entertainer doesn't mean I will give a half @rsed performance. I approach any performance - be it one on one, a few at a party, or an entire pub of strangers - with the same attitude I would if I were getting paid. I give it my all and show a respect for the craft.

Many times I've read on forums about folk wanting to "turn pro". In the majority of cases I'd say they were no where near the stage that I'd consider good enough - brutal honesty perhaps but honest none the less. We have folks who have been "learning" for a few months who are asking about getting business cards printed up advertising themselves as "professional" magicians. I mean, really ? I'm all for folk getting out there and performing - there's absolutely no point learning the craft if your not going to perform. But give it a good few years at least before you even THINK about doing proper paid performances.

Magic should be approached with dignity. Many seem to forget this and just see pound signs. If they can get the gig and get paid then that's all that matters - the actual quality of the magical experience taking somewhat of a back seat.

I know this post may seem rather harsh but you did ask our opinion. There are many so-called "pros" out there whom, if i hired them I'd be demanding my money back. I think its sad that any fool who has had a paid gig can call themselves a professional magician. In my opinion the term "expert" should be used for a skill full magician. In todays world professional no longer describes your attitude nor how good you are, simply that you are getting paid - and it seems the unwary public will happily pay for substandard performances, assuming (as I used to) that professional means expert.

Rant over.


Jim

A mate of mine who prefers to remain anonymous told me that he kept on doing the unpaid gigs to the very best of his (exceptional) ability and it was only when someone offered to pay for him to perform at an event that he thought about being a pro in the sense of being paid. Now he mainly does paid gigs, with the occasional freebie depending on the event, and he gets most of his bookings by word of mouth or when he's at an event and people ask if they can book him for their event or occasion. In that sense he's a professional in both senses of the word - although he still has a day job which allows him to take time off for weekday bookings etc. so he's not totally dependent on magic for a living.

No please be brutally honest that is what this is post is for! Interesting insights here.. So the majority of magicians still have 'normal' day to day jobs then do the odd gig here and there outside of working hours?

jim ferguson wrote:I'm going to give you my honest opinion here, if folks don't like it, tough, I don't care.

Now before I do I should point out that I am not a "pro" in the accepted sense. I do not do paid gigs nor make my living from performing. HOWEVER, and this is in my opinion the important point - I have a "professional" attitude towards performing magic. Just because I'm not a paid, hired entertainer doesn't mean I will give a half @rsed performance. I approach any performance - be it one on one, a few at a party, or an entire pub of strangers - with the same attitude I would if I were getting paid. I give it my all and show a respect for the craft.

Many times I've read on forums about folk wanting to "turn pro". In the majority of cases I'd say they were no where near the stage that I'd consider good enough - brutal honesty perhaps but honest none the less. We have folks who have been "learning" for a few months who are asking about getting business cards printed up advertising themselves as "professional" magicians. I mean, really ? I'm all for folk getting out there and performing - there's absolutely no point learning the craft if your not going to perform. But give it a good few years at least before you even THINK about doing proper paid performances.

Magic should be approached with dignity. Many seem to forget this and just see pound signs. If they can get the gig and get paid then that's all that matters - the actual quality of the magical experience taking somewhat of a back seat.

I know this post may seem rather harsh but you did ask our opinion. There are many so-called "pros" out there whom, if i hired them I'd be demanding my money back. I think its sad that any fool who has had a paid gig can call themselves a professional magician. In my opinion the term "expert" should be used for a skill full magician. In todays world professional no longer describes your attitude nor how good you are, simply that you are getting paid - and it seems the unwary public will happily pay for substandard performances, assuming (as I used to) that professional means expert.

Rant over.


Jim

I agree very much with this. A very good post which should be read again and again, particularly by the younger generation. Too late for the older ones, alas.

mark lewis wrote:

jim ferguson wrote:I'm going to give you my honest opinion here, if folks don't like it, tough, I don't care.

Now before I do I should point out that I am not a "pro" in the accepted sense. I do not do paid gigs nor make my living from performing. HOWEVER, and this is in my opinion the important point - I have a "professional" attitude towards performing magic. Just because I'm not a paid, hired entertainer doesn't mean I will give a half @rsed performance. I approach any performance - be it one on one, a few at a party, or an entire pub of strangers - with the same attitude I would if I were getting paid. I give it my all and show a respect for the craft.

Many times I've read on forums about folk wanting to "turn pro". In the majority of cases I'd say they were no where near the stage that I'd consider good enough - brutal honesty perhaps but honest none the less. We have folks who have been "learning" for a few months who are asking about getting business cards printed up advertising themselves as "professional" magicians. I mean, really ? I'm all for folk getting out there and performing - there's absolutely no point learning the craft if your not going to perform. But give it a good few years at least before you even THINK about doing proper paid performances.

Magic should be approached with dignity. Many seem to forget this and just see pound signs. If they can get the gig and get paid then that's all that matters - the actual quality of the magical experience taking somewhat of a back seat.


I know this post may seem rather harsh but you did ask our opinion. There are many so-called "pros" out there whom, if i hired them I'd be demanding my money back. I think its sad that any fool who has had a paid gig can call themselves a professional magician. In my opinion the term "expert" should be used for a skill full magician. In todays world professional no longer describes your attitude nor how good you are, simply that you are getting paid - and it seems the unwary public will happily pay for substandard performances, assuming (as I used to) that professional means expert.

Rant over.


Jim

I agree very much with this. A very good post which should be read again and again, particularly by the younger generation. Too late for the older ones, alas.

Yes I also agree, myself for example im not a professional magician I do magic for friends and family and sometimes at family events like parties, wedding ect.
one wedding at the night due my mother's friend was watching me perform and later said "your better than the magician we hired for my daughters wedding"
Now im no expert, I cant admit to being expert, knowlegble in areas and maybe a know it all in magic historically but expert no. my point is though professional doesn't mean skilled or expert and I would say that's what Mark Lewis and Jim Fergunson are saying.

jim ferguson wrote:Now before I do I should point out that I am not a "pro" in the accepted sense. I do not do paid gigs nor make my living from performing. HOWEVER, and this is in my opinion the important point - I have a "professional" attitude towards performing magic. Just because I'm not a paid, hired entertainer doesn't mean I will give a half @rsed performance. I approach any performance - be it one on one, a few at a party, or an entire pub of strangers - with the same attitude I would if I were getting paid. I give it my all and show a respect for the craft.

This is exactly my approach too!

There's another element to turning pro that many people seem to ignore. Forget about magical abilities for one minute and consider the most important thing - becoming successfully self-employed!

I'd say that setting up a business on your own is possibly far more challenging than learning some tricks. Building and sustaining a brand, generating a reasonable income and considering an exit strategy (i.e. where is all this leading to? What happens when I retire?) are all essential. You also need to deal with various taxes, including NI contributions, consider tax-avoidance (not evasion!) issues and so on.

Also consider the possibility that amateur/semi-pro magic may actually be more enjoyable for you than being a full-time pro. All jobs can become a bit of a chore.

T.

Some good stuff in this thread too: ftopic14335.php

Ted wrote:There's another element to turning pro that many people seem to ignore. Forget about magical abilities for one minute and consider the most important thing - becoming successfully self-employed!

I'd say that setting up a business on your own is possibly far more challenging than learning some tricks. Building and sustaining a brand, generating a reasonable income and considering an exit strategy (i.e. where is all this leading to? What happens when I retire?) are all essential. You also need to deal with various taxes, including NI contributions, consider tax-avoidance (not evasion!) issues and so on.

Also consider the possibility that amateur/semi-pro magic may actually be more enjoyable for you than being a full-time pro. All jobs can become a bit of a chore.

T.

Even as a semi-pro you need to registering as self-employed for tax & NI purposes, keeping records and doing tax returns. The odd bit of "hobby" income can be ignored, but no more than that.

Barry

Some very good points there Ted. I'm not self employed but can certainly understand what a daunting task it must be getting your own business off the ground, regardless of your field.

Your last paragraph is also interesting. I have done the odd charity do (table hopping) and performances at friends weddings and the like. Whilst I enjoyed these immensely, it also made me realise how much I enjoy NOT being a "professional". I enjoy the luxury of performing on MY terms, when I want. If I'm not in the mood I don't perform.

I'd also like to add to my rather negative post above that whilst there are many bad (or not very good) pro's out there, there are also some exellent ones - its not all bad.


Jim

Staying as a hobbyist until you're a Maestro seems to make sense to a lot of people, but it's not the only way. I can see how it's a comfortable way to do it - I'm sure we all spent a lot of time neurotic about how we're not good enough to show other people a trick, and this could continue this fear into "not good enough to pay".

There's more than one way to skin a cat, of course…



Me, I got fired from my fulltime job in November last year. They said Misconduct, I said Discrimination. No chance of references, and no other employer for the previous 13 years.

Consequently job hunting was exceedingly painful. In the Spring the job centre despairingly asked me "well what other skills do you have? What else can you do?"

I'd only been back into learning magic for a year at that point, having abandoned it as a teenager. But I had also been for several years - a public speaker, a training facilitator, an activist and a puppeteer in my spare time. So I guess I had a background in presence and stage manner.

"What else can you do?" I took a deep breath and reeled off the list. Their eyes lit up and I was signed up for free courses on how to run a business.

So, now I'm self-employed (primarily) as a magician. The magic I do is mainly children's parties.

Becoming self-employed isn't about how skilled you are at card sleights. What someone on here would insist on a "pro" magician being able to do if they booked them is completely different to what a layman customer would expect. Other magicians want to be baffled by pure skill but most of the public find self-working tricks as impossible as others. Sometimes more so if they don't know the difference between "slightly impossible" and "completely impossible". Being self-employed is about marketing, and finances and marketing.

Am I making enough money to live on? Nearly - taking into account the other strings to my bow. Nearly - but I've only been self employed since March, and although things are growing slowly they are nevertheless growing.

If I still had my full time job I'd never have made the leap as there's no way I'd be skilled enough as a magician to make that kind of money. But the less you earn, the less you have to lose. And when you have nothing then any ladder out of the hole is a welcome ladder.

Am I rubbish magician and you'd want your money back? I can't answer that. The happy children and parents make me think I'm good enough right now, and each performance improves me.

[quote="fiftytwo"]Becoming self-employed isn't about how skilled you are at card sleights. What someone on here would insist on a "pro" magician being able to do if they booked them is completely different to what a layman customer would expect. Other magicians want to be baffled by pure skill but most of the public find self-working tricks as impossible as others. Sometimes more so if they don't know the difference between "slightly impossible" and "completely impossible". Being self-employed is about marketing, and finances and marketing.



I don't agree with the above paragraph. Becoming a self employed MAGICIAN certainly is, or SHOULD be about how skilled you are as a MAGICIAN. Someone could have all the business skills under the sun, but if they are not a SKILLED MAGICIAN then they have no right charging the public for a sub-standard performance. Take those "cowboy builders" as an example - they probably make a good living, they are self employed, they may get plenty of business and consider themselves quite "savvy" when it comes to the business side of things. But more often than not their work is simply not up to scratch.

If someone is going to part with their hard earned cash to hire a magical performer then that performer OWES them his very best. To say its ALL about business (ie cash) and nothing to do with actual ability is ludicrous. I'm not saying folks should be a "maestro" before becoming professional, but they should be of a suitable standard.

The point about magicians wanting to be baffled by skill is not the case for me personally. I've been involved in the craft for a long time and am rarely fooled by a performance (its nice when I am though). But this is NOT how I judge other performers. I don't care whether the tricks are self workers, knuckle busters, or anything in between. Fooling me is not an issue - I just want to see them done well.


Jim

I think that one thing worth thinking about is that being a skilled magician doesn't necessary mean that you're technically skill but could equally mean being skilled in entertaining your audience. I've been mesmerised by some very entertaining magicians performing little more than self workers and also been bored silly by some who could pull off some really knuckle busting sleights but had the presentation and personality of a dish cloth.

Piff the Magic Dragon springs to mind...
[EDIT: In a GOOD way!]
T.