talkmagic.co.uk

Hello all,

I recently bought the Joe Mogar DVD, Chameleleon Knives. I love the moves and routines but I don't want to buy the knives, which aren't cheap, until I'm sure it's not illegal to carry them in the UK. I know you can use other objects such as lighters to perform similar routines (as on Lee Smith's STEP System DVDs), but there's something about the knives I really like.

I've read that it's legal to carry a folding pocket knife (a penknife) if the blade is less than 3". Does anyone know for 100% certain that this is true?

And how long are the blades on the knives? On the DVD it looks like they could be anywhere between maybe 2.5" and 3.5" approximately.

To confuse things further, the metal part of the knife, the sharp edge doesn't run down all the way, there's maybe a centimetre that isn't sharp. If the police were to measure the 'blade', would they consider the blade to include the non-sharp part?

The problem with all of this is that we can all try to make a judgement and use common sense, but with such a serious issue (you can get a few years in the slammer for carrying an illegal knife), it's important to know that the information is 100% accurate.

Any help appreciated.

Laurence

Two things - are you being paid for performing ? and how do you carry your props ?

If a knife is used as part of your job - chef, butcher etc - then you are allowed to carry the knives to and from your place of work. The must be in a suitable container or bag though. Don't just stick them in your pocket as they could then be classed as a concealed weapon.

If you are a paid entertainer and the knives are part of your act then it is legal for you to carry those knives to and from gigs. The best place to carry them would be in a case along with other magic props.

Or just glue the blades shut.


Jim

http://www.knifewarehouse.co.uk/s2g/esh ... knives.pdf
The PDF above should help, what Jim says is essentially correct.

Thanks for that, Jim and Soveda.

"Good reason for carrying a knife may be shown by occupation as a farmer, estate manager, recreational stalker, gameshooter, angler or anyone else who has reasonable grounds for expecting to need a knife whilst pursuing a lawful activity."

Magicians are not mentioned. I can't believe it. Even stalkers get a mention.

"There is an exemption in law for folding pocket knives. These must have cutting edges of less than three inches and blades which do not lock."

I expect that cutting edge part of the Mogar knives is a bit less than three inches. Can anyone confirm that? Clearly we can carry them on the way to/from paid gigs, but I'd like to know if I can also perform with these knives while out socially. They seem to be referring to the bit of the blade that is actually sharp, not the entire 'metal bit'.

As a retired Police Officer, I can tell you that on a practical level if you can show a Police officer that you have a legitimate use for the knives then you will be OK. Show them a trick with the knives and smile and I can assure you that they have much more urgent and pressing things to do instead of the hassle of dealing with you for carrying a knife!

I think the last answer is an excellent one. Just do the trick with the knives and all will be well.

This reminds me of the time I was selling svengali decks in Ireland and was demonstrating the Dutch Looper which is a variation of the three card trick that Pat Page used to do but without the flap. I had the trick for sale. I had a big crowd around me and the stupidest looking cop stood there watching and looking grim. Somebody purchased one and he said "Money is changing hands. That is illegal". I couldn't be bothered talking to him since I had a crowd round so I simply handed the instruction leaflet to him and said "I sell these. These are the instructions" He looked at them although I am not sure if he could actually read and I carried on demonstrating. He then dropped them on the table and walked away still looking grim and miserable. He had probably been demoted that morning.

I am afraid the Irish police aren't too bright. I still remember the time I was selling svengali decks at the Westport Horse Show and two cops tried to stop me working saying they had received complaints that playing cards were the work of the devil. I argued for five minutes that the svengali deck was not the work of the devil. They walked away when the crowd started laughing at them.

I related this story in my most worthy memoirs.

The topic of knves and the law has been raised a few times before, once thread is at sutra247079.php which may, or may not (!) help.....

It could be worth looking into Flash by Chad Long
Essentially it's colour changing knives but with flash drives...

I don't own Flash so I'm just guessing but I imagine most if not all of the moves/routines on the Joe Mogar DVD would work with the flash drives.

I think knives are better. I don't even know what a flash drive is.

Good point, so i guess the first question should be: who are you performing for? will they know what a flash drive is? if so then perhaps its a good way to avoid any legal issues.

mark lewis wrote:I don't even know what a flash drive is.

AKA USB Memory Sticks

Oh, knives are better even if there is a danger of getting locked up over it. The trick goes back decades with knives and has always been an excellent one. This reminds me of the old Al Baker adage, "Many a good trick has been killed by improvement"

Mandrake wrote:The topic of knves and the law has been raised a few times before, once thread is at sutra247079.php" target="_blank which may, or may not (!) help.....

Thank you, Mandrake, for that. I did do a search for something like 'mogar knives law' but nothing showed up. Maybe I should have left out the Mogar. My mistake.

And thank you everyone else for responding to my initial post.

To me the knives are classy and a bit sexy (no, I'm not a psychopath!) and flash drives a bit geeky. As for lighters, some Zippo style lighters seem quite classy, but plastic lighters, not so much... It all comes down to what you like to have in your pocket. They're all equally valid, it's good to have the option.

Mr Grumpy wrote:I did do a search for something like 'mogar knives law' but nothing showed up

No worries, I think I just put 'knives' into the Google search and that link showed up. Sometimes you need to try a few different phrases to find stuff!

Chad demoed his USB stick version at Blackpool last year (?) and said that he'd come up with that version as a direct response to concerns about knives. Whilst the UK allows small blades, there are many countries where there's a zero tolerance on such items. Also, the use of a penknife is probably a lot less common than it was moons ago when it seemed that every man carried a knife to sharpen pencils, ream out the bowl of a pipe, do the occasional bit of whittling etc*. His assessment was that youngsters were more likely to be familiar with a USB stick and will carry them to transfer and exchange data. Chad's version also finishes with a extra 'whammy'. From Chad's site:

A classic trick, brought up-to-date with modern technology! Two USB flash drives, one red and one black are freely shown. They switch places several times, each more visual than the last, and then the black drive stretches to three times it’s normal size!

* Having said that, I always carry a small Swiss army penknife ( presumably designed for use by a small Swiss army ) of legal blade size which I find comes in handy most days for opening incoming parcels of magic stuff, credit card bill envelopes and so on. About the most dangerous aspect are the tweezers and I fear I may one day have an uncontrollable urge to rush out and tidy up someone's eyebrows........