talkmagic.co.uk

Happy Toad wrote:

fair enough.. if you look at the copyright on most books and dvds you will see a message that states "this is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent,re-sold,hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publishers prior consent" so thank you for pointing out that its the same arguement so by that we can safely say that the trading or selling of dvds books is not allowed

Problem with that argument is that it's not true.

The standard blurb in a book states

No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in or introduced into a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means ( electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise), without the prior written permission of.......

I really can't understand the apparent desperation to find a reason to ban the sale of DVds.

ok firstly i take offence at being called a liar. if you like i can post pictures taken from books to show this.
i really cant understand your apparent desperation to find a reason NOT to ban the sale of dvds other than just "stirring" for the sake of it

I think the logic to this statement is seriously flawed when compared to part of the reason for banning the sale of books and dvds, which is that possession of the material includes an inherent license to perform it so once the material no longer belongs to you you have no legal right to perform it anymore

.

Where does it state this?
Do you also apply this logic to tricks?

How do you answer my question reference no attempt being made to block sale of rip off tricks?

With other types of book, novels for example, you can no longer read the story once you have sold the book, so you automatically lose the benefit of it.

No you have already had the benefit from it and the person you loan or swap it to get's the benefit without paying anything to the author.

Maybe that is true, but it is valid for many things in life. Making of child pornography is illegal in most countries. It doesn't stop it from happening though, so do you think, based on the logic of your statement that it should be made legal?

Ah and you have hit the nail on the head when you say "it is illegal". When something is illegal in a country that generally respects the law, you have everyone working together and even then it can be very hard to block certain activities. In this case it's not illegal and therefore only a very few that want to take the "moral highground" are trying to block it. This will have no real impact at all on stopping the act.

Further I don't think it is the moral highground since to be moral you would need to be consistant and this is not being done consistantly. Further I very much doubt that any of the moderators always withhold themselves from ever borrowing or loaning a magic book or DVD.

May I just add since I seem to be debating against the entire moderator team, that I don't want my disagreement to be taken as an implication that I think anything other than that the moderators here consistantly do a great job.

That said as you can see I completely disagree on this particular topic, as do most of the people that have thus far voted.

Where does it state this?
Do you also apply this logic to tricks?

It is not stated it is implied by the fact that the author has published the work. It applies equally to tricks with pysical apparatus but with the difference that when the kit is sold on and the license goes with it it is more difficult to continue to perfrorm it.

With regard to the laws v rules question I would ask you what a law is. It is simply a rule made by those in charge, there is no latent standard for legality, only a sense of justice and morality imposed on those under the charge of the governing body. Rather than being completely different, this is exactly the same as the situation here; a rule has been made and it will be adhered to by members of the forum.

you have everyone working together

I reffer you to the matter of speed limits. It is a legal requirement that they are stuck to and yet, people who would never consider infringing even the pettiest of other laws are quite happy to break the speed limits and complain bitterly about their existence. This does not make them any less legally binding, and your complaints about the existence of our dvd rule does not mean it will go away.

I really can't understand the apparent desperation to find a reason to ban the sale of DVds.

There is no desperation to find a reason to ban the trade of books and dvds. We have a reason which has been clearly set out many times and no argument put forward is going to invalidate it. As mog says, the only desperation appears to be on the side of people who want us to change the rule, which we aren't going to do so just give it up!

ok firstly i take offence at being called a liar. if you like i can post pictures taken from books to show this.
i really cant understand your apparent desperation to find a reason NOT to ban the sale of dvds other than just "stirring" for the sake of it

Perhaps Mog you take offense to easily.

I simply picked up the nearest 4 or 5 books to me and found they all said the same and then quoted what they said. I'm certainly not saying that you can not find any book anywhere with a prohibition against loaning, but I do disagree with your statement

if you look at the copyright on most books

Based on the fact I looked at and have now looked at a few more books handy to me and have yet to see the particular disclaimer you mention.

As an aside Mog, when someone claims that something you have said is not true, it does not automatically mean you are being called a liar. There are other options, such as being misinformed, your memory failing you or just being plain wrong. It is not wise to assume the worst and then take offence based on that assumption unless you want to spend a lot of time being offended.

sorry about the picture quality

There is no desperation to find a reason to ban the trade of books and dvds. We have a reason which has been clearly set out many times and no argument put forward is going to invalidate it. As mog says, the only desperation appears to be on the side of people who want us to change the rule, which we aren't going to do so just give it up!

I can see that you have a mind set that no argument will invalidate your position, despite the fact that you all ( I doubt there is an exception ) privately break the rule you have set, despite the fact you have no answer to not allowing the sale of rip off magic tricks.
You may want to apply desperation to those of us that disagree with the rule but actually I can't remember the last time I sold a DVD, for me this is purely a matter about principles.

Having said all that I accept the right of the moderators to make whatever rules they so desire and do appreciate a board that even allows a rule to be debated.

Mog I didn't argue it wasn't in ANY book, just that it was not in most.

Further I've just looked at 15 magic DVDs and it isn't on any of them.

Happy Toad wrote:Mog I didn't argue it wasn't in ANY book, just that it was not in most.

Further I've just looked at 15 magic DVDs and it isn't on any of them.

you were the one who stated that all books and dvds should be treated the same way

so lets have an end to the arguement now shall we?

Personally, I'd rather see the trade of DVDs regulated in a forum rather than forcing it "underground" via PMs and emails etc. I also think that putting it in the restricted areas is a very good way of regulating it between trusted members.

you were the one who stated that all books and dvds should be treated the same way

Yes I think the same principles should be applied across the board but clearly Mog there are exceptions to every rule and if a book has a particular copyright that bans it even being loaned then that is clearly an exception, however it's particularily tight copyright shouldn't be used by applying it to all books and DVDs that don't have that copyright.

you cant have it both ways... either you want the rule to apply to all or none?

Happy Toad wrote:despite the fact that you all ( I doubt there is an exception ) privately break the rule you have set

If I didn't know that you are saying these things predominantly for private amusement I could take that statement as libelous. I can assure you that I have never traded a magic book or DVD, I do not break the rules in place on this forum as I wholehartedly agree with the reasons that they are in place. I am unsure of the legal rights I have with regard to that statement but at the very least it is defamation of character in a public place. Please decist from making personal statements that you cannot back up with proof.

CALM!!
Handbags away, ladies, please!
Personally, I voted in favour of DVD trading, but the mods have spoken so,Hey, just let it go.

but clearly Mog there are exceptions to every rule

I thought it was all about consistency.

would need to be consistant and this is not being done consistantly

To be consistant if you think magic books/Dvds should not be loaned swapped or sold you would have to take that position on other DVDs and books. If you don't then there is a real inconsistancy in your argument

If I didn't know that you are saying these things predominantly for private amusement I could take that statement as libelous

Not at all I know for a fact that numerous Mods have loaned or sold/traded DVDS privately and I know that you know that. I'm surprised that you would not loan a DVD but if you say that is the case I will accept that.

you cant have it both ways... either you want the rule to apply to all or none?

I thought it was all about consistency

Most people fully accept that with every rule there is often an exception. Personally I'd like to see all books being available for loan but if a particular book or DVD has stated it can't be loaned we have to accept that. However because a small minority of books take that hardline position doesn't mean we should apply it to all books any more than we should apply a spped limit of 20 mph everywhere because some roads have that limit.

Just as a final comment from me on this topic, the way I see it can be summed up in reply to the following quote:

Happy Toad wrote:I can see that you have a mind set that no argument will invalidate your position

This is quite accurate. Our position is that a rule has been made and is not going to be changed no matter what arguments are brought against it. It has been set because we feel, however misguidedly, that the magic industry would be better off if creators benefitted from every sale of their creations. We have limited the scope of this point to the trade of instructions only material as it is the format most open to duplication (not necessarily by copying but by continued performance after transfer to another owner) and as has already been quoted by HT from the copyright statements in the book he had to hand:

No part of this publication may be reproduced......by any means ( electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise), without the prior written permission.....

So any transfer which leaves the possibility of continued performance is, by my interpretation of that statement, illegal.