talkmagic.co.uk

now that were are no longer directly related to a retailer should the sale / swap of dvd's be allowed in the magician,s only section .

(i have been asked by several people to propose this).

That's fine, but what about those of us who don't have access to this area but have DVDs (or books etc.) that we might wish to "recycle" into the Magic community?

Why should people who have earnt access to the MO areas be given special privilidges with regard to the sale of books and dvds?

Surely the reason the rules were put there in the first place will remain either way?

i belive the general concensus of people i have spoke to is that it would be the only way to stop sales posters and thoughs after a quick buck at the expense of the forum, you only have to look at some of the other forums that have an open door policy to see how quickly it can get out of hand.

a person who has mo access is less likely to flogg copied dvd's as they have far more to loose than a first time poster.

I can understand any rule aimed at stopping the illegal sale of copied DVDs but can't see why the sale or trade of legitamate DVDs should be blocked. To my mind it just drives the sales to ebay and I personally would rather it was kept to the places where real magicians hang out.

As far as I know MB has no real problems with it's policy of allowing DVD trade and they do it on the public forums, though doing it in the magicians only section would make it even less likey for abuse.

When this forum was directly linked to emagictricks it made sense, I'm not sure what the reasons are anymore. I voted yes.

There is still the issue of if you can do the trick(s) after you've sold the DVD/Vid/Book etc, then it would quickly develop into folks buying items, gleaning all they can, and then selling them on instead of letting others buy their own new copy from the author, distributor etc. For the individual punter it would be a great idea in the short term but if the professionals see their market declining due to this sort of second hand trading then they'll probably not bother taking on the expense of production etc of new stuff which would affect us all long term. Of course, we all know it goes on (and so does illegal copying) but that doesn't mean we have to permit/promote it on TM.

Another aspect is how do we know that the DVDs on sale are genuine originals rather than copies? And how do we, as Moderators, monitor such sales? Frankly, I wouldn't like to have to deal with that side of things as we get enough unnecessary aggro as it is. If there are other sites where these sales are allowed the surely that’s where sellers/buyers should go?

this was discussed ages ago and the theory went along the lines of.....

"A" buys the dvd which means that the creator gets his money for the sale, "A" then decides hes got the routine down to a fine art so he sells it to "B" who after a couple of weeks decides that he's also doing ok so sells it to "C". "C" then decides to make a couple of copies and flogs them on ebay and makes a fair profit, "D","E","F" and "G" (the ebay buyers) then decide that THEY should make a few copies and sell them on ebay and so on and on...

now is it fair that the creator gets the royalties for ONE sale when the secret is passed to 15/20 people? no of course it isnt, so by not allowing the trade of instructional materials we are actually helping the magic industry rather than hindering it because when you think about it, why would the creator of magic keep on doing it if he is only getting royalties for 1 out of 20 sales of his dvd?


Magicweek.co.uk also doesnt allow the sales of dvds/videos/ebooks for this very reason

Like most things in life today there's a positive and a negative, much of which has already been summed up.

Personally I'm in favour of being able to trade books and DVD's that I don't use or need anymore but for me, rather than it sitting on a shelf gathering dust. If somone else can get some use out of it then perhaps this is a good thing.

The emphasis must be with the traders to ensure that they are getting a genuine article and not a pirate copy and that's something that would need to be made clear so that the Mods didn't have to become involved. However, I acknowledge that some CD's and DVD are sold to support a particular gimmick and an inexperienced buyer needs a mechanism to ensure that they don't buy just part of the original package that's no use to them.

Anything that you buy will have a use to you, either short or long term and you will get whatever benefit from it that you can, or need to, as a result of your purchase. This shouldn's stop you from being able to sell it on to someone else at a later date - even if it is a book or a DVD.

People will only pay what it's worth to them. If I can buy a DVD from Penguin for £16.99 them I'm not going to pay the same for a second hand copy. People should be able to judge the risk based on your standing as a member, say 500 posts as opposed to 3 or 4. Is there a way of fixing it so that posts in the 'for sale' section do not add to your posting tally? Maybe a couple of extra Mods or Administrators would be needed to administer the section.

I believe that the real majority of people here have good intentions for this site and also don't want to see the site abused. Maybe getting up to a certain level will give some protection so that the facility is available to those who have earned it.

The real investment in buying an instructional book or DVD is the reading, the practice, getting over the frustrations etc. and in trying to put the knowledge into practice.

The real investment in buying an instructional book or DVD is the reading, the practice, getting over the frustrations etc. and in trying to put the knowledge into practice

then why not buy it from the creator rather than a second hand copy?

I think the argument is seriously flawed.

In the first place since it's entirely legal to sell unwanted ( for whatever reason ) DVDs or books on magic, they will be sold and banning the sale only changes the place not the fact it will happen.
So the goal of the rule is destined to fail.

Secondly the rule could be applied to DVDs and books of every genre, even novels. An author spends much time a dedication writing his novel, sells some and then people lend them to friends and worse Library's loan them to anyone. Should all sale and loan of all books and DVDs be blocked?

In the third place, are the people who make these rules people that would never loan or borrow any book or DVD on magic? if not it also would appear to be hypocritical.

In the fourth place the argument could equally be used on many tricks, which can be used on all your friends and then swapped or sold. In many cases the trick can be made, or at the very least principles learnt can be applied across to other tricks.

End of Rant

In the first place since it's entirely legal to sell unwanted ( for whatever reason ) DVDs or books on magic, they will be sold and banning the sale only changes the place not the fact it will happen.
So the goal of the rule is destined to fail.

True - but from a moral high ground point of view - we can feel happy that we have done our bit to stop it. As Talk Magic represents an organisation and is not an individual I personally feel we have an obligation to do the right thing.

Secondly the rule could be applied to DVDs and books of every genre, even novels. An author spends much time a dedication writing his novel, sells some and then people lend them to friends and worse Library's loan them to anyone. Should all sale and loan of all books and DVDs be blocked?

That is another debate all by itself. However as we are a magic site, then I feel we should stick to the issue at hand - which is the sale of Magic DVD's and books.

In the third place, are the people who make these rules people that would never loan or borrow any book or DVD on magic? if not it also would appear to be hypocritical.

Going back to my answer to the first question. Talk Magic is effectively an organisation and so consequently has a different set of guidlines it should adhere to rather than what any one individual may or may not do.

In the fourth place the argument could equally be used on many tricks, which can be used on all your friends and then swapped or sold. In many cases the trick can be made, or at the very least principles learnt can be applied across to other tricks.

That is also quite true, but where do we draw the line? For the most part I would say that when a trick is sold - the seller does actually stop performing it. Obviously there are exceptions to this but it is a nice feature of the site to be able to sell or exchange magic effects. Personally I would like to see this feature stay - but if you feel we should not allow the sal of any magic - then please let us know...

just my thoughts...

True - but from a moral high ground point of view - we can feel happy that we have done our bit to stop it. As Talk Magic represents an organisation and is not an individual I personally feel we have an obligation to do the right thing.

The whole point is that it does absolutely nothing to stop it, it just means it happens somewhere where they are few if any controls.

That is another debate all by itself. However as we are a magic site, then I feel we should stick to the issue at hand - which is the sale of Magic DVD's and books.

It's not another debate, it's exactly the same but since it's not magic it allows us to be less emotionally involved and therefore be more objective. To be consistant if you think magic books/Dvds should not be loaned swapped or sold you would have to take that position on other DVDs and books. If you don't then there is a real inconsistancy in your argument.

Going back to my answer to the first question. Talk Magic is effectively an organisation and so consequently has a different set of guidlines it should adhere to rather than what any one individual may or may not do.

An organisation should not make or set rules than the individuals within that organisation would not be happy to keep. Therefore I assume that the rules made by this organisation are rules the majority of the individuals within it are happy to keep themselves?

That is also quite true, but where do we draw the line? For the most part I would say that when a trick is sold - the seller does actually stop performing it. Obviously there are exceptions to this but it is a nice feature of the site to be able to sell or exchange magic effects. Personally I would like to see this feature stay - but if you feel we should not allow the sal of any magic - then please let us know...

As you clearly understand my argument is the other way. I'm simply suggesting that based on the motives for the rule against DVDs and books other magic should either not be sold or the whole thing needs looking at and all catergories should be allowed. Obviously not copies.

However if you really want to take the moral highground then surely there is no argument for allowing the sale of magic tricks such as the "Time Machine". This among many others is allowed yet it is a rip off of an orginal. Therefore completely undoes the reason given of protecting the creators, as there is absolutely no attempt to stop people selling rip off magic tricks.

Regards

HT

It's not another debate, it's exactly the same but since it's not magic it allows us to be less emotionally involved and therefore be more objective. To be consistant if you think magic books/Dvds should not be loaned swapped or sold you would have to take that position on other DVDs and books. If you don't then there is a real inconsistancy in your argument

fair enough.. if you look at the copyright on most books and dvds you will see a message that states "this is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent,re-sold,hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publishers prior consent" so thank you for pointing out that its the same arguement so by that we can safely say that the trading or selling of dvds books is not allowed

Happy Toad wrote:Secondly the rule could be applied to DVDs and books of every genre, even novels.

I think the logic to this statement is seriously flawed when compared to part of the reason for banning the sale of books and dvds, which is that possession of the material includes an inherent license to perform it so once the material no longer belongs to you you have no legal right to perform it anymore.

With other types of book, novels for example, you can no longer read the story once you have sold the book (unless you have made illegal copies, but we aren't really talking about that) so you automatically lose the benefit of it. Admittedly the royalties to the author is still an issue but then publishing runs of magical literature are vastly smaller than those for popular literature and reference books of other types so it can validly be stated that sales of second hand magic books and dvds have a far greater impact on the earnings of the author.

Happy Toad wrote:The whole point is that it does absolutely nothing to stop it, it just means it happens somewhere where they are few if any controls.

Maybe that is true, but it is valid for many things in life. Making of child pornography is illegal in most countries. It doesn't stop it from happening though, so do you think, based on the logic of your statement that it should be made legal?

I think that I can state without any uncertainty that, whatever the outcome of this poll, the sale of dvds and books will never be allowed on this forum whilst any of the current mods are still incumbent in their positions.

fair enough.. if you look at the copyright on most books and dvds you will see a message that states "this is sold subject to the condition that it shall not, by way of trade or otherwise, be lent,re-sold,hired out, or otherwise circulated without the publishers prior consent" so thank you for pointing out that its the same arguement so by that we can safely say that the trading or selling of dvds books is not allowed

Problem with that argument is that it's not true.

The standard blurb in a book states

No part of this publication may be reproduced, stored in or introduced into a retrieval system, or transmitted, in any form or by any means ( electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise), without the prior written permission of.......

I really can't understand the apparent desperation to find a reason to ban the sale of DVds.