talkmagic.co.uk

No joke.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/bren ... 0603.shtml

Comments?

I suppose we should expect nothing less from Penn and Teller...it's what they do.

I may not agree with everything that they say but I do admire the fact that they speak their minds with total personal conviction.

As to this case, well... it is best left to the quiet opinion in the minds of everyone. I know I'm not aware of near enough factual information to have any strong convictions.

As to their language and verbal treatment of the people they look at...again, it's what they do and it is based upon the depth of their feelings and they don't shy away from letting you know what they are. If one is offended by "no-holds-barred" statements and controversy...one best stay away from P&T on TV!!!!

Tom Lauten wrote:but I do admire the fact that they speak their minds with total personal conviction.

What's so admirable about that?
Any idiot can do that, and most bigots usually do.

Personally, I can't think of anything more cowardly than insulting a little old lady who's been dead too long to answer back.

Of course bigots and idiots express their opinions and conviction, why not? We all have the right to do that, and most people exercise that right.

Bigots and indeed idiots can also exercise the right not to say anything. They are usually welcomed with open arms into the collective saftey of group protection when they quietly accept anything they are told (such is the price of admission). People are positively encouraged to believe the "party line" without question. Finally they are expected to cry foul when others challenge the "correct" interpretation and call those people who do not "toe the line" idiots, bullies bigots, loudmouths, cowards, trouble makers, infidels, Commies, evil, etc. etc.

I think those who set the rules of acceptance and therefore the rules that identify the bad guys often "doth protest too much".

As I said...I do not have enough information to decide for myself if MT was all she was proported (by the church and the mass [albeit largely uninformed] public) to be. I'm sure P&T have some basis for their claims. If those facts (as they see them) make them angry enough to pick on MT (little, old and a lady though she may have been) or perhaps more accurately the "image" or "cult" of her, so be it. If we are expected to blindly accept this image and legend, why shouldn't others defend it by answering questions that are validly raised, especially ones that challenge the rather "perfect" party line?

Others who are long since dead are given an equally hard time and worse for putting themselves or being put upon a pedestal of worship only to later be seen as far ...FAR less than the image of perfection and selflessness once ascribed to them. Remember, Stalin was once affectionately known and admired World-Wide, as "Uncle Joe".

I retire the soap-box and offer those who have a vested interest..."the last word".

I'm not the sort of person who'd have a Mother Teressa phot on my wall and having read the article regarding P&T and their views, which of course they are free to make in this democratically enlightened world I think that I too am entitled to make some comments:

1. When asked how Mother T was going to feed the world and alleviate poverty - her response of 'one at a time!' appears to be realistic and realised. I have met many who visited her operation and this was borne out by them.

2. It's easy for really Fat, over fed, overpaid people to be witty. This led to the French Revolution.

3. It's easy for vacuous comments to come from bears of little brain, that's why we have modern day jesters such as P&T, they're not meant to be taken seriously and to do so credits them with intellect and worth. That said even an idiot can turn comedy and satire into worthwhile consideration I suppose and there is sensible conversation coming from their puerile utterings!

4. Mother T had to do her stuff because people suffered because people like P&T can point the finger. But what does their wealth bring to the world and what in contrast did T's poverty bring?

In all, they can have their views. Religion (especially Christianity) is a safe target, it will bring the publicity that some crave when attacked, belittled and abuse (see Jerry Springer the Opera if you don't believe me!). Valid - not really! Shocking - as was intended! Intelligent - about as intelligent as a fart in a spacesuit!

The problem isn't that bigots can also have their views, the problem (it appears) lies in the fact that the moderate often refrain from voicing theirs. Anything that shows disrespect to anyone or to their religious beliefs, personal belief or attitudes is not an exercising of democracy and the right to speak but is in fact another brick removed from the wall!

We are called to dialogue not disgust. We as magicians are called to entertain and to educate not utter crass profanities and smile at our cleverness - or to quote from a great who has gone before - 'all done with kindness!' In the case of P&T, I think not!!

Sorry this is so long,

Vic

Just a thought re-reading.

We all have a vested interest, this is the reason the world's going so mad. We are not spectators or players, we are all a part of the game.

If someone was to write an article extolling the virtues of paedophilia, would this be something admirable because they wrote 'with conviction'?

I'm not banging a drum for Mother T or Catholics - I want us to be a part of our communities, this civilisation we find ourselves in and realise that we are all players in it. Conviction is fine, but no matter how much I write that the world is flat, no matter what conviction I have regarding it, what I would be saying is wrong.

Admire content. Admire concepts and language but please don't admire rubbish uttered by morons because it was written or said with conviction. Conviction, when spoken by actors is meant to be convincing, else Macbeth would be a lot funnier than it is, but real life and theatre are not the same.

Sorry to write again, but needed to sort head out before work!!

Vic(ar)

Now I understand....

I actually agree with Tom's earlier posts.

Again I don't know a massive amount about MT other than her motives for her good work. Her motives were purely selfish, she believed she could earn her way into heaven. Now I'm not against good works with less than good motives, cos I guess if good works were only done when the motives were pure, not much good would happen.

However this women has been lifted up and become almost god like in the minds of some, so it's to be expected some will react to this.

I'm an advocate of free speech as long as that speech is not encouraging anyone to violence against other groups or persons. I also don't accept any rules being put on me as an entertainer ( outside of the law ) If I can entertain biting the head of a chicken gross as that is, or making crass comments about Jesus Christ as long as there is adequete warning of the type of show it is, I'd say that as my business.

Too many people are too easily offended, I note in the paper yesterday that a hospital was removing Christian symbols in order to avoid offense of other faiths. For crying out loud lets not be so quick to pander to the offended.

Happy Toad wrote: I don't know a massive amount about MT other than her motives for her good work. Her motives were purely selfish, she believed she could earn her way into heaven. Now I'm not against good works with less than good motives, cos I guess if good works were only done when the motives were pure, not much good would happen.

Don't think I've read this theology from her, but if that was her view, she'd be out of luck there anyway! Think there is some element of mindreading going here but who cares she's dead I guess so I can't write to ask her anyway!

However this women has been lifted up and become almost god like in the minds of some, so it's to be expected some will react to this.

Totally agree, she and Princess Diana are non-religious substitutes for the secular world (and some of those in the church too!) This is part of our 'shared experience' society I guess, the same one that Liverpool got uptight about with the Bigley affair. We get too associated with people and things we kno9w knothing of, making demi-gods out of them.

I'm an advocate of free speech as long as that speech is not encouraging anyone to violence against other groups or persons. I also don't accept any rules being put on me as an entertainer ( outside of the law ) If I can entertain biting the head of a chicken gross as that is, or making crass comments about Jesus Christ as long as there is adequete warning of the type of show it is, I'd say that as my business.

Too many people are too easily offended, I note in the paper yesterday that a hospital was removing Christian symbols in order to avoid offense of other faiths. For crying out loud lets not be so quick to pander to the offended.

And the funny thing was that they hadn't asked any of the other faith groups (who were more upset by the action than many of the Christians - weird or what?)!

It's nice to see some balanced talk although not sure this is magician talk but perhaps magician's talking, which is different.

Anyway, if HT is right, Mother T had her reward whole she was here. If I'm right P&T arehappy because people have paid them more attention than they merit and for all those who get too uptight about their faith, chill guys - remember 'If it's really important then it's worth being able to laugh about it!'

I suppose I should know this better than some as a fully fledged Oxbridge theologian and Anglican Priest.

Now, how do I really get my Elmsley count and the rumba shuffle smooth and looking effortless.

Vic

ps. Thank you all for you comments, made me think about work

You really have to understand the show, no really. It is a purposeful flogging of deception of just about anything. You would not believe what has been flogged on that show and most to good measure. It is quite funny and P & T are really trying to point out the BS that exists in day to day life. More than likely they have or will skewer one of your own sacred cows. They have mine and I still listened and learned. More outrageous than their language is some of the outright BS that they uncover. No doubt they uncovered some outrageous things for this episode as well. Notice there was no criticism of the facts and shock of the truth, only complaining about the language. Talk about ignoring the message on purpose!

I was hooked after the first episode. P & T are basically conservative but what we call libertarian which implies only minimal government interferance and takes a very literal reading of the Constitution of the US.

And you have to understand, the author of the article is a fairly hardcore ultra right wing commentator with definite ties to religion, so obviously he is offended. And the article is incredibly biased and slanted. Hardly the basis for an informed opinion. Oh well. He shouldn't be watching Showtime anyway! This is provocative adult programming, what does he expect! Good thing he doesn't watch "Deadwood"! Now that has language!

Tom Lauten
I suppose we should expect nothing less from Penn and Teller...it's what they do.

I may not agree with everything that they say but I do admire the fact that they speak their minds with total personal conviction.

Or not speak their minds. Lol i agree with you but the small guy doesn't talk. I don't think he's a mute just probably some sort of gimmick.

Teller has actually spoken on several TV programmes - he has quite a deep and cultured voice which seems strangely at odds with his mute magical persona.

Just a thought on comedy / entertainment - Do people really beleive that Ade Edmonston t**ts Rik Mayhal over the head week in week out on Bottom with a real cricket bat?

I think maybe it's the same with P&T, it was just said to provoke people, and not necessarally their true views.

And owing to our very PC sensitive community people find anything and everything offensive.

I just wish people would lighten up and chill out and not get so worked up - but this is what P&T are trying (and suceeding) to acheive.

Rob

Although the linked article is clearly of a right-wing bias, Penn and Teller's comments would likely not be considered appropriate to many, perhaps, most people. What more would one expect of a television program entitled, "Bullsh*t"?

I do not condone the actions of Penn and Teller, but most of the modern media hold major biases -- including the above article, many American newsgroups, and other television programmes.

I think the best bit of advice I can give is to take the comments of Penn and Teller with an exceptionally large grain of salt. Their comments may not be in-line with the thinking of several people, but that doesn't mean they can't entertain others with their antics.

I've always found Penn and Teller to be considerably satirical -- even with their magic -- and I believe that their ideoligical comments should be viewed in the same light.

It is my opinion that the show is not a rant concerning society and its true follies, but rather a satirical examination of society, which is displayed in a tactile imitate-the-strangeness-of-society manner that examines deeper issues. One of these deeper issues regards society and its quick-to-judge nature, which was pointed out earlier.

Penn and Teller seem to be displaying this characteristic so satirically that it lends itself to being analsyed deeper than what they are literally conveying. In other words, they imitate the qualities of society that are undesireable to most in order to convey their deeper meaning, which naturally contrasts the literal meaning of each episode. Of course, there's also quite a bit of Penn and Teller's brand of horsing around, but there still seems to be some meaning behind their show. At least, that's what I got out of it.

Remember that large grain of salt? Some may want to take it with my post, as well as Penn and Teller's show, if they do not agree with any or all of my statements. We all have different view and takes of things, after all.

I absolutely agree. Whilst there are many people who find it clearly offensive, there are an equally large amount of people who probably enjoyed the show. Then probably some who found it hilarious...

Each to his own, as long as we live in a free world!

=o)

~Sym~