talkmagic.co.uk

Yes normally you perform for people that don't know how it's done but the point proves that the entertainment does not come soley from fooling someone.
I have done for example certain mentalism tricks that take for example 10 minutes. The actual "magic" only occurs at the end, if they hadn't been entertained for the previous 10 minutes you I would have lost them. The fact is they were being entertained long before the magic even happened.

The magic is simply the main tool we use to entertain, everything is built around the magic but the magic isn't everything.

Happy Toad wrote:The actual "magic" only occurs at the end, if they hadn't been entertained for the previous 10 minutes you I would have lost them. The fact is they were being entertained long before the magic even happened.

So if you did not include the magic at the end, would your audience still be entertained? If you stripped all of the magic out of your performance and relied soely on your ability to entertain your audience, would that be entertaining, when they started the evening expecting to see magic? Simply, the answer is no.

Which has brought us full circle; the emphasis must rest equally on entertaining and fooling your audience.

How does that prove there is equal merit to the enjoyment of the audience on entertaining and fooling?

Fooling is completely useless in this context unless it is entertaining and therefore fooling in of itself is not the goal, since you can fool without entertaining, in fact you can be very annoying in the way you fool someone.

Sure the whole concept of magic includes the idea that you do something that appears impossible and since it clearly is possible you have therefore decieved/fooled your audience. However the goal is not deception the goal is entertainment.

Happy Toad wrote:Fooling is completely useless in this context unless it is entertaining and therefore fooling in of itself is not the goal, since you can fool without entertaining, in fact you can be very annoying in the way you fool someone.

We're arguing the same point .

Gold Fish wrote:It is my belief that my two primary goals as a magician is to entertain and to fool people.

Happy Toad wrote:I don't really see fooling them as my main goal, rather entertaining and amazing them, fooling them is just the route to the goal.

Gold Fish wrote:However, anybody who has performed to anybody (ever) should know that to simply perform the mechanics of a trick well is not entertaining. You may fool your spectator but you haven't entertained them.

Happy Toad wrote:

you cannot just entertain people and you cannot just fool people; there must be an equal measure of both.

Can't disagree more, in fact it clearly isn't true since I can watch and be entertained by a magician even when I know exactly how the trick is done.

Gold Fish wrote:a lay audience appreciates the show because they have seen good, entertaining magic.

Gold Fish wrote:Which has brought us full circle; the emphasis must rest equally on entertaining and fooling your audience.

Happy Toad wrote:Fooling is completely useless in this context unless it is entertaining...

I think words are important. When we set out to fool someone, in some senses we're implying that they are fools. It may not be our intention - but it very often comes across that way. The purpose of doing magic is just that - to do magic. I think there is such a thing as real magic - it's what happens in the minds of the spectators. The fact that a spectator actually sees a coin going in my hand - when it isn't, or when someone really sees a spoon bending and twisting in front of their eyes - that's real magic. How I accomplish that is irrelavent - the magic is the fact that I can change people's perception of reality.
As a result of the magic that happens - people are entertained. Entertainment is the outcome of doing real magic - ie. demonstrating to people that reality is not always as clear as they think, and the things that limit them may just be illusions of their minds.

Goldfish you are annoying me now, can't you see I'm trying to disagree with you and your trying to make it look like I'm agreeing with your every word

ht relentlessley trying to disagree? No, it'll never happen

Goldfish wrote:

nickj wrote:Entertainment is the only real purpose of magic skills...

People do not pay to see a magic show simlpy to be entertained. Similarly they do not pay to go to a concert simply to be entertained. People go to a magic show to see magic, and a concert to hear music.

Ah, true, but I am looking at it from the point of view of my own performances, during which few people are expecting to see magic. once I have launched into a routine an expectation may arise for later tricks but I think that most of my audiences are happy to be entertained by someone there and would not care if the medium for that entertainment were magic, jokes or simply friendly conversation and lots of beer.

A movie fools your brain. It is a series of frames that move so fast it looks like it's motion. Is the purpose of the movie to fool your brain? - Definitely not. That happens to be the method - or the means of entertaining you. I think it's the same with magic. We use a number of methods to give the illusion that magic is happening. Sure we're 'fooling' people - but that's the method, not the goal.

Having read this thread and considered the forum I'd probably say, using a great quote from elsewhere:

"I use all five senses of my audience to make them think I possess a sixth!"

I never seek to make the audience (and especially my 'helper') look like fools, neither do I seek to look foolish to entertain so for me the answer is neither,

Thanks

Vic

I agree with Happy Toad. I don't really like the connotations of "fooling" someone. Sounds and feels quite grade school to me. When we take on the role of fooling someone, we are challenging their intelligence. And if we are worth our salt, their self-esteem will diminish because they don't measure up to our skill. You are sending the message to them, "you SHOULD know how I do this, but you don't." I just don't like how that feels at all.

I prefer using my art to help someone have a magical experience. I want them to experience beauty and wonder and magic, not to be worried that they can't solve my puzzle. To me there is no puzzle, it is simply a display of art.

When I go to the museum to see a Monet, I am not fooled, nor do I try and "figure out how he did it". Heck if I know! It is so far beyond my plane of existence I couldn't even begin to tell you. Do I care that I don't know? Of course not! Of course I know that painting is not the reality. I am not stupid. But seeing the painting and the masterful use of color and stroke combined with the artist's unique vision truly is a magical experience.

That is what I think is a worthy goal.

neither, all depends on what kind of magic you are doing and to whome you are performing it.

Clifford the Red wrote:You are sending the message to them, "you SHOULD know how I do this, but you don't." I just don't like how that feels at all.

Surely that only counts if your patter etc are targeted on 'fooling' your audience rather than entertaining them. I think that the whole source of this discussion is due to a slight mis use, or at least dual use of the word fool. Those that are arguing that we shouldn't fool people are thinking of the literal meaning, whereby to fool someone you make a fool of them. I would guess that those (like myself) who have argued that fooling is an integral part of most effects are using it to mean 'to deceive'.

I am wholy against the idea of making a fool of your audience (except in certain special circumstances!) and yet I used the word fool because I beleive that however good your performance is, if the trick is not deceptive it is you who has been fooled.

It is true, however, that the ultimate aim should be to progress beyond the stage at which your audience wonders how you did it, to be honest I don't think the worry of somone figuring out a trick I perform has even crossed my mind for a very long time.

So we do fool/deceive but hopefully we do not fool/make a fool of our audience.

Personally we are here to give a gift that we have to others, to entertain them and show them amazingly wonderfull things that our lord has given us.

We are to be known as bad people, as im sure if you dont agree all magicans are mad you haven't been doing magic for a very long period of time.

nickj wrote:Surely that only counts if your patter etc are targeted on 'fooling' your audience rather than entertaining them. I think that the whole source of this discussion is due to a slight mis use, or at least dual use of the word fool. Those that are arguing that we shouldn't fool people are thinking of the literal meaning, whereby to fool someone you make a fool of them. I would guess that those (like myself) who have argued that fooling is an integral part of most effects are using it to mean 'to deceive'.

Yes, however I believe that if "fooling someone" is the goal, then no matter the patter, your presentation will smack of it. The audience can sense your intentions.

As far as the term, yes we do deceive in order to create the illusion, but I even think that "deception" is a technicality born out of feeling guilty. Guilt is a real problem for many magicians, but it shouldn't be, it can't be if they are to reach their potential as an artist. A painter doesn't feel they are deceiving anyone, their entire focus is on creating an artistic masterpiece. In a painting, deceptions and tricks of the eye abound, but that isn't the point of the painting.

What I feel is that we are to make the spectators experience magic. Its about the experience. We are not there to "fool" them. Deceive would be a better word (which in no way means "fooling"). How we create an atmosphere of magic, it depends on what path of magic you choose. You can do it comically or mysteriously, or whatever way you want. Magic is like a movie, you see comedies, you see thrillers, you see adventures, but you enjoy them.

Your job as a magician is to make your act enjoyable, by creating a sense of wonder, of delight, and giving them the experience that they have never felt before.

So forget about petty arguments over enjoying first and fooling later or fooling first and enjoying later, and go out there and make them experience

AJ